CanUK_TeamFitz

Actually, for a long time I've been thinking of doing something like a mystery cache mixed with finding virtual caches in Minecraft. You can even get coordinates by pressing F3 - so it seems the perfect game suited to geocaching.

That seems a bit puzzling - it infers that you didn't find the cache at all. Isn't that a DNF? Particularly considering your comment: I'm even more confused. I also regard my cache logs as a journal, but if I don't find a cache then I log that I haven't found it and that's all part of the journal. So none of the above seems to make any sense. Perhaps it's clear but I'm just being slow! As an example, I can look at my cache logs from Wednesday and see that I attempted a cache series consisting of 24 caches. At a glance I can see that I had finds on numbers 1,8,9,10,11,12,14,16,18,22 and 23. DNF on 5,13,15,17,19,20,and 21 (the others I'd already found on a previous visit, except 24 which I couldn't attempt). 13,15 and 17 are now disabled as the CO suspects they have disappeared. Would you be inclined to log those as "finds" in some way? If so, it would seem bizarre: I never found them, and whether they were there to be found or not is irrelevant. At the moment my DNFs are useful to me as a record, and to others for obvious reasons. I hope by my post I didn't infer that I never log DNF's or I do this all the time. Quite the contrary - your example provided is a bit of straw man. I have plenty of DNF's logged, some were quite annoying and painful to log but I logged them anyway and if you want to see a good example of how much effort we're prepared to put into a DNF here: http://www.geocachin...cf-6f9fbf66e788 So with that out of the way. I see I some very legalistic approaches to this hobby in this thread and if that's how you get your kicks then fine, but I'm not interested in losing sleep over the hobby, judging others or starting wars. That's why I took to avoiding these forums and only occasionally interject now. As a husband and wife team, we're not in a race with anyone but ourselves. Stats are only important for us and we're not even attempting to compare to other cachers. We choose to cache the same way we do life, which is to say sometimes we bend the rules, sometimes we ignore them, but we have grace towards others that do the same. With regards to the particular example you inquired about, I was thinking of a puzzle cache at the time we had solved, but on getting to GZ there place had been torn up by a car accident and barriers had been put up. The CO let us change the DNF and disabled the cache. No harm done to any other cachers and it meant I didn't have to return later. Seriously some people need to switch to decaff... (not you in particular HH, but some in this thread).

I own one of these and it's a great GPSr device but yeah, as B&R said, you can only get the GC short code or using gpsbabel you could send part of the GC full name. The trouble is that there's a limited amount of characters, and where COs have a penchant for labelling their series "Trail in the Woods #1: Start of Trail", the 60CSx will only show "Trail in th~" making using the search page completely useless. I find it's easier to use my Android phone for reading the cache details, and use the GC short code in the GPS.

I have no problem with it myself. I was contacted by a group that thought they'd found the GZ to my night cache but that the cache was missing - they described the exact location they were in and I was satisfied they were in the right place. They respectfully didn't log and I went and checked. The cache had indeed gone, so I replaced it and let them log a find. I've been offered to convert a previous DNF after the CO has confirmed it missing - I took them up on the offer. I've also logged a found log upon finding a logbook and lid but nothing else, I've logged found if it's the (obvious) container but logbook missing. I logged a find recently on a cache that I didn't want to disturb because it was in the middle of an ants nest - I took photo's and a video instead (I also offered to convert the log to DNF if the CO requested). I dropped a cache off a bridge once and contacted the CO to apologise - I dropped it before I managed to get the log out - the CO was OK with my found log. It's not about the numbers to me, but it is about my journey - many caches I won't get to go back but I still want a journal of where we've been and I use geocaching.com to keep that. Just to balance it out, here's some things I will log a DNF for: Neither logbook nor container found; unless confirmed with CO, I will not put a throw-down; If I find a container but going by the description it's not the correct one - I've seen people put their own logs in a rat-trap - but if the CO is aware and not bothered then I don't try to intercede. You're the CO, it's ultimately your judgement call - but remember the game is also about fun and pick your battles wisely.

I think that's highly irresponsible! Part of a challenge could include taking a photo. Yet as we know, photographers are also under the same amount of scrutiny - thereby also risking negative perception towards both geocaching and photographers. Let's see... Huge public expense............................................................... check! Intrusive security measures................................................... check! Removal of non-sponsor branded goods and clothing.............. check! Ban on geocaching.................................................................. check! Wow - so many things to be thankful to the Olympic fat cats organisers for! Hopefully I'll be avoiding London for the majority of Summer, but when I cache or use a camera, I will conduct myself the same as I would when I don't cache or use a camera; with full knowledge of my rights and responsibilities; with an understanding and knowledge of certain statutes, powers and limitations of UK public servants. But I'm weird that way.

But... but... every cache _TeamFitz_ has found so far has been a First Time Find...!

When we did that one we just prentended we were trying to get an insteresting photo from different angles. Most of the lurkers didn't pay much attention to us, but it was cold. We quite enjoy stealth caches and often find stealth is not always required even at busy locations. Contrary to what most people think, most people wander around in a fog and don't notice half the things going on around them. If they did they might see some interesting things. Artists like Derren Brown use this knowledge to perform tricks on the public. Next time you're out and about, grab a coffee, sit outside and watch people - ocassionally you will see something funny, fascinating and/or interesting. Every now and then look up, look around, take in your surroundings... as geocachers we're more aware than most of certain activities taking place, but we're not immune from tunnel vision. Recently we took our nephew geocaching in Bedworth Park, after we had found one or two and headed to the next, he started going up to the nearest tree and looking to see if it had a cache, turning to us to ask if it was there... of course we were still over a hundred meters away but it was cool to see his awareness level being increased by geocaching!

I try to inject a little humour into my logs. This is not the one I'd consider my funniest, but it's the only one (I know of?) that other cachers commented on how much they enjoyed it in their following logs. http://www.geocaching.com/seek/log.aspx?LUID=eb19c7ce-b211-4e51-b080-c3d72ee5da97

As others have stated, there are ways of putting these things which highlight a poor placement to the CO without denigrating their effort. When I find a location is particularly poor (due to littering, neglect or vandalism) I usually leave a note on the log like this: I highlight the word "become" and the phrase "when you placed the cache" because I like to assume that the CO didn't just look at a tip and think that would be an ideal place to hide. Even if they did not realise or notice the trashy location, hopefully I haven't dented their ego but given them an easy way out, it's much easier for them to then say "Of course I'll move it now it's got to that state..." rather than dig their heels in at a rude response and pretend they don't see a problem. A soft answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.

Thanks to bones1 for taking over 4 more caches... just waiting for confirmation on the final few.

Thanks, that's very nice of you to say... I have another local cacher who is interested so hopefully they'll soon all be covered!

............because I'm moving to the US! Greetings All, Ha - No _TeamFitz_ are NOT committing forum Geocide (hope I haven't disappointed anyone)! Instead we have a special announcement that we are relocating to the US on an indefinite basis, thanks to my job, and therefore are looking for local cachers to either adopt, or go for shared ownership and help with maintenance (particularly for the puzzle caches). We'd prefer to go for shared ownership because ( a ) due to the nature of work contracts we may be back in the UK before we've even had a chance settle and ( b ) we are particularly fond of them - no explanation needed, I think. However if our US adventure turns out to be a success and long term, we're happy to go for full adoption (if it's clear no-one wants to do shared ownership then we can think about adopting right away). Below is the list, with a brief description: Croxley Green Ghost Station #1 Croxley Branch - http://coord.info/GC1Z8M6 - Tricky hide sited near the abandoned Croxley Green Station. Watford West Ghost Station #2 Croxley Branch - http://coord.info/GC2X89D - Small container outside abandoned Watford West Station. Watford Stadium Ghost Station #3 Croxley Branch - http://coord.info/GC1ZNDJ - Multi hidden near abandoned Watford Stadium Station - most rewarding for access to the station but trashy area (the cache is located in a clean part). Low maintenance. Brockley Hill Ghost Station (Northern Heights) - http://coord.info/GC20PRH - Cache n dash located near what is left of the viaduct. Big Yellow Sun - http://coord.info/GC1W1KJ - Our first cache, a micro hidden next to an interesting abandoned Clock Tower. Cache Cow - http://coord.info/GC26H08 - Hidden on Croxley Moor. Great views. Low maintenance. Schrödinger's Cache - http://coord.info/GC22HK2 - A puzzle cache with a surprise, also hidden on Croxley Moor. Low maintenance. Rustic Island Cassiobury - http://coord.info/GC280MW - The fun part is getting onto the island. Duck Hunt - http://coord.info/GC25AKP - A special container which will require crafting skills if it goes missing. Zombie - http://coord.info/GC2A3MP - A puzzle night-cache. High maintenance due to firetacks - but these have yet to be reported missing. Cassiobury Walkabout - http://coord.info/GC1X970 - A multi in Cassiobury Park with clues based at each waypoint - low maintenance and nice walk. 1321 - http://coord.info/GC20H0J - A puzzle cache hidden in Cassiobury Park - very low maintenance. Initially I'm moving next month, but Mrs Fitz still has to work out her contract and I'll be back before our final move so I will keep these caches active until we've completely wrapped up in Watford, and posting early allows me to meet up with any prospective owners and show them the hide. Feel free to post any questions ITT or send me a PM. Edit: Thanks to The Bongtwashes for taking on Cassiobury Park caches!

Ha Ha Ha - Good one! So I suppose, without opening a can of worms with discussion about guidelines, I would say define the following.... Quality Appearance of Bogus Counterfeit Off-Topic Inappropriate My guess is that on at least one or more of those subjective points we will have a difference of opinion. Also of note, Groundspeak have not deemed in necessary to issue a guideline on the frequency of cache maintenance (i.e. to go and check online logs against the logbook). Presumably, being a conscientious CO you visit every 109 of your geocaches every time someone logs a find, to verify that it was not bogus? As long as nothing offensive is logged on the cache page, for me, that will do. I notice an increase of blank logs just lately - I have no idea on how to judge these but Groundspeak sees fit to allow them - perhaps their standards of quality are much, much lower than anyones here. Of course I am unaware if the GAGB have any further guidelines when it comes to maintaining cache logs... Lets clarify my original sentence shall we? It's my right to sit on each cache page repeatedly pressing F5 until someone logs a find, then immediately go out and visit my cache to check that it's valid, but I'm waiving that right since I really want to have fun with the game and not get bogged down trying to enforce rules and police other cachers. I really don't even know why I'm responding to this topic, wasting time on the forums when I really should be watching my cache page doing something more fun and interesting. "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men."

That always makes me laugh - the old "We did this as part of group x". I've noticed many a difficult puzzle cache found by groups. I have to admit, when I'm struggling to solve a puzzle or difficult terrain that kind of irks me, but in the end I laugh. There is one particular cacher (naming no names) I've noticed at events who goes around asking other cachers about the difficult puzzles, until they've picked up enough pieces to effortlessly put it all together... sure enough in a few weeks there's a "found it" logged. I notice this particular cacher enjoys using the events to team up and get the high terrains too. I just smile to myself and I know I can be self-satisfied that we've needed very little assistance in any of the puzzles or high terrains we've done (only contacting CO/teaming up on 3 or 4 of them).

It's a nice idea and creative! A coupe of caveats I think.... 1) The reviewers are not going to allow anything on the description that promotes a charity - this is against GS rule - no matter how noble 2) Although I'm sure many geocachers are socially responsible and honest, there's a good chance someone is going to come along, and think nothing of trading that nice pile of money for a McToy or an acorn or something. You'd have a lot of difficulty building up any amount of cash before it was stoleH^H^H^H^H^ traded. To get around (1) you could simply mention it as a school project, or maybe just link to a seperate webpage with the details? To get around (2) I have no idea - although.... what about listing an Event Cache instead? Then take the £1.00 and buy something to make pathtags or other signature item out of, make them and sell them to geocachers who come to the event? Or even just paint the pennies themselves or tie them to something?

We've logged caches where we haven't signed the log (once I even forgot to sign the log in haste), but when this has been the case we've always done one of the following: Taken a photo for the online log Had permission to log found from the CO Left a TB or GC but didn't have pen at the time Made some kind of mark with whatever was to hand Most of the time when we forget a pen, I just take a photo now with my phone. I don't see this as a problem because I'm not particularly in competition with anyone. If there was some kind of competition then of course this kind of thing should be classed as cheating. Resuscitator caches - meh. If it's part of a challenge then it's between the COs of both caches to police that. If someone finds a mystery cache but did so without completing the challenge - should there log be excluded? For me, no - well done for finding a work-around, my challenge obviously wasn't foolproof enough. So I think if you set a Resuscitator challenge then they have opted to be responsible to check that the find is valid... in a way they've set themselves a challenge too. So I don't mind if people log my caches and haven't signed the log book, it's my right to check the logs and delete, but I'm waiving that right since I really want to have fun with the game and not get bogged down trying to enforce rules and police other cachers. If that's how others like to spend their free time then, whatever floats your boat, but I wouldn't expect to gain as many friends through it.

Wait... wah? That's new! And I see it makes extensive reference to GAGB! It's been a short while since I last published a cache but is this on the publishing form? If not, why not? I can't find any link to it on the front page of the site. This is a bit of a game-changer for me -- It's quite clear from this that Groundspeak endorses the GAGB and it's guidelines - yet it appears to be buried away from mainstream eyes... and in all the discussions we've recently had not one reviewer has thought to offer this link in defence of the GAGB.... why? Is there a reason this has not been shown so far? I really think that Groundspeak should provide this link on the cache publishing form. They clearly endorse GAGB as their representative in the UK and it's a little disingenious to pretend that it's not the case. It's also quite clear from this that for the UK at least, Groundspeak is not providing all the guidelines that are to be adhered to! With this kind of nonsense I welcome tech-based startups like Gowalla and recently Munzees mentioned elsewhere... and perhaps, hopefully, other alternatives to the game that are simple, clear and don't feel the need to start regional committees and institutions in order to play. If the current rate of innovation continues I imagine at some point Groundspeak will have some real competition, from a startup that is not tied down by invisible rules and rules that are not really rules but really are....

I agree! Why would we want anyone to find our caches?! The whole purpose of hiding them is so they can't be found, let alone by new people!

I like your thinking. it certainly sounds like an organisation I'd prefer to join... one that actually sticks up for geocachers, rather than cowing to anyone with a boot to stick in. However, in order to win over people like me let alone secure funding, I would need to see them announce a large and public policy change. A retraction of sorts for the direction which they've been headed. I'd simply like to see them not react to stuff like the bomb incident other than provide support for the individuals involved. Has anyone contacted the BMC about this man yet? - http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2011/01/20/%E2%80%98spiderdan%E2%80%99-fights-charges-in-san-francisco-court/ Has the BMC introduced new rules for all climbers to sign before climbing? Is he damaging the sport?

First they came for the micros, and I did not speak up because I hated micros....

I guess the GAGB are like the British Mountaineering Council is to climbers or the British Canoe Union is to canoeing. Both those organisations represent a sport, I'm not saying caching is a sport but you get my drift. Groundspeak run a listing site for caches. Now that might sound like a good thing, I'm a member of both those organisations. I can go out, buy a canoe, pay my fee to the broads authourity and paddle away to my hearts content. No guideline the BCU makes needs affect me. The broads auth control the water and set the rules. I can also pay for BCU membership, get cut price access to the broads and lumped in with that many other rivers without getting separate tickets, and also, ON TOP OF THE BROADS AUTHOURITY rules VOLOUNTARILY abide by the BCU guidelines. In short, in canoeing I can choose, on GC I can't. Apart from taking my caches elsewhere. So in short, we'd like them to say: Rather than what the general message is now which is:

OK it's clear I assumed too much... of course dogs need to be let off the leash (however maybe for some dogs it's better if the owner has a big yard). However my point about a dog license is it would serve 2 purposes: 1) Ensuring that those who own dogs are committed to the responsibility (i.e. willing to pay for the privelege of owning) 2) I have heard talk of DNA matching to dog licenses - this would have many beneficial uses, not only to match a dog bite to the dog, but to match dog poop and fine owners who don't clean up. I have lost count of the number of times I've stood in poop now whilst geocaching - autumn is the worst with all the leaves on the ground. and just to remind people, I was brought up with dogs, I like dogs and may possibly own one again one day (but I will make sure it's trained and has a nice big yard to play in).

And yet it appears as though the relationship is really the other way round - you have to sign up to GAGB's terms to fully enjoy gc.com. Maybe it explains why GS apparently have no problem with another organisation applying extra rules as they see fit. Actually I don't know why that made me laugh, it should cause concern.

Are they? almost all of my caches are listed elsewhere and one of the complaints I have of the GAGB is that they claim to be independent and represent caching but actually ignore all but the GC site. I sometimes wonder just how much we would hear from them here if there wasn't a UK forum. It's all too cosy here. They don't appear to have engaged with the only UK based listing site at all in the latest consultation. Is that really consultation? Are they really supporting the growth and enjoyment of Geocaching within the UK when they ignore the UK based listing site in their bomb scare rule making? So why don't they? Why don't they give us the facts? How many calls do they get on the hotline? How many landowner complaints do they get? They never tell us this so we have no idea. Hell, if they are getting tons of them even I might be more for them. Stuey, I'm not trying to break them apart, if anything I would imagine more people than ever are looking up their website from all this discussion. I am realistic enough to know they are not going away. But these people stand up and claim to represent us. My beef has always been that they don't. They represent a few cachers. Do you have any figures to support your claim that I'm in the minority? The GAGB have 538 active forum members. I have no idea how that translates into active members but I suspect it's a lot less. When an awful lot of cachers out there have either never heard of the GAGB or simply don't care, then I would question your claim. If we didn't have vocal people in the world we would be saddled with all kinds of laws etc we don't want. People and organisations that want to represent people MUST be prepared to hear the voice of those that do not want it. Should I simply lie on my back and let the GAGB tickle my tummy? Icenians, I've done a little research and what I've garnered is that many of the approvers/reviewers on other sites are GAGB members. Furthermore, by way of one example check out - http://www.opencachi....php?page=T_O_S Google searches reveal other caching sites have GAGB influence too though are not quite as explicit... whats the point of having alternative geocaching sites if the same reviewers sit on all of them and have their own set of guidelines - which they apply in a blanket fashion? I'd genuinely be interested to hear in alternatives - who have their own guidelines whether they are looser or stricter than Groundspeak's, completely independent of the GAGB (e.g. not a GAGB member who will apply GAGB guidelines on top of the site guidelines).

I accept that the GAGB may have performed a support role in the past, I really do... but then if - as it's been asserted a number of times here - the UK requires a different set of guidelines and approach to Groundspeak (an American company), why hasn't it set itself up as an alternative site? Sure it's great if GAGB can get a land-owner on side, but regarding land-ownership in general, there are already guidelines from GS about permissions/access etc... If a geocacher going about his business is stopped by police - well there are laws that are interpreted by the courts to deal with that. If a cache is removed by a land-owner or by a theif, the effect is the same - CO will probably have to archive it or get adequate permission. If there is a bomb alert, we have to shrug and accept that's part of the game too - with a wise word from GS to think about where you place caches sensibly. I understand if there's a fear that at some point geocaching could get total widespread bans (which I think is mostly irrational - society would need to jump a few hurdles to get to a place like that), however at that point I simply think it would move underground. I've mentioned numerous underground hobbies in previous posts that all face the same sort of legal challenges, yet those people accept that as the nature of their game.