Konnarock Kid & Marge

You may be right, but we don't think it was due to the "dope zombies"! We have been there a few times and no dope zombies were in sight. The real danger is due to mother nature. Over the years, there have been a few people who have fallen to their death or severely injured while messing around at the top of the Falls. Most have fallen from the top of the Falls which you have no business going there in the first place and were not required to do so for the earthcache. There is one short part of the trail that is very narrow (inches) that can be slick and provides a nasty drop. Even though you can get hurt by falling off that part of the trail, we don't believe it has been the source of death. You can even avoid that by going up hill (to the left)at the small falls. I am not in any way, shape or form criticizing the archiving of the cache because of the dangers involved and after all it is on private property and if the owner says no it means no! We were extremely surprised when the area was opened up in the first place. It has been posted (off limits) off and on for years. When we went for the EC, the area was pristine and no sign of drinking, etc. was found and it was not posted. All in all, it's still sad because the Falls and it's surrounds are beautiful.

It's a game!!!!!

Good grief people, doesn't anyone know how to stay on topic? Some of us are getting a little tired of the same old off topic opinions! P.S. We just returned from a lovely five day camping trip and the same old stuff is waiting. Where is a moderator when you need one?

Good grief Charlie brown!!!

Yes, I know. I think you misunderstood what I wrote. I can understand the various motivations to take part in a half-marathon. Finishing a half-marathon or finishing it within some time limit is something I regard as accomplishment. Finding a certain number of caches is nothing which I regard as accomplishment. Someone who has found 50 Earthcaches is not a better Earthcacher than someone who has found 10. Runner X (age 30, male) is a better marathon runner than runner Y (age 30, male) if his personal best time is 15 minutes shorter. From time to time I am proud that I managed to reach a certain cache, but I have never felt any satisfaction for having found a certain number of caches. That does not add any experience at all to my life. That's the issue I was wondering about. It is not about the icon, but the fact that I feel that nothing is behind the icon. That's different in the running example. Cezanne Someone once said that, "a true geocacher finds, but never logs (on line) his/her geocaches!" That is truly a non-numbers cacher. I have only met two such cachers and one of them later succumbed to keeping track of their finds. Maybe they were the Worlds only "pure" cachers? Like the man-in-the-moon, I don't believe that for one moment! It has been our experience that those who protest the most about being not interested in numbers are really the most interested! If you are proud of your numbers, go ahead and brag about them. Just don't become obsessed in comparing your numbers with others. Someone mentioned competition. Yes, you can compete with yourself! We all were first graders once and we have become accustomed at collecting check marks. Grades, check marks, icons and yes those dreaded numbers, are all ways of keeping score and there is nothing wrong with that unless you become obsessed with them and forget to change your underwear, stop eating, send the kids to year round summer camp and exhibit other unsocial behaviors! With Geoaware providing a new set of goals, I solemnly promise that in my pursuit of those new goals I will not allow that to interfere with the daily necessities of life......like saying 'good morning' to Marge! P.S. All earthcachers, take the above pledge, just substitute any name for Marge!

Can't wait!

It's kinda hard to respond to the original post.............since it is in German (I think)! But, at least the cache description is bilingual so here goes. It sure looks like an impact crater or a rock quarry (whichever came first...lol) to us. What's the big deal? After all, it is presented as an example of a 'theory'!

Ooops!

That's sounds like a good idea. We have found one 100 find challenge caches and someone mentioned another on the West Coast, but both are too far away for most. A finding all or some percent of all types would be nice. Maybe something 25% - 50% - 75% and all 100% of the different types? Now for all those backlogged ECs that need a classification. I have worked up many, but there are lots and lots of them! I still believe Geoaware need volunteers. Check with him.

Here is another cache which requires 100+ earthcache finds: My link

Chokecherry, please don't get discouraged because of one person's point of view. If everyone will remember, ECs are to be developed at a language level of understanding of a 14 year old. I don't know too many 14 year old kids that have multi-PhDs in geology so the program was never, never designed from an elitist point of view. One of the really nice things about earthcaching is the variety found within the game. ECs developed by PhDs in geology to that mythical 14 year old are all welcomed. Sure, not all ECs are on the same level and that is to be celebrated not condemned! Geoaware, you are right, from out here in 'earthcache discovery land', we have seen nothing but positive results from the Master's program. If it wasn't for your earthcache program in general and the Masters program specifically, we would have never become interested in and have developed such a love for geology. Yes, I know just enough geology to be dangerous, but that wouldn't have happened without your efforts. In our drive to develop and find more ECs (because of the masters program) we would have never had to read about, discuss and learn so much about geology. Thanks for that and pay no attention to the repetitious and overly negative criticism. Go for it and the sooner you announce the new program the better! Thanks.

I am sorry, but the point is being missed. Anyone who follows this forum knows that there is ONE person from a CERTAIN country who always criticizes the Masters Program and represents it as one of the worse things that has ever happened to earthcaching. Also, while she has never developed an EC, she continues to belittle her local earthcaches as having no substance and not worthy of a visit! My reference was not a stereotype of an entire nation, it was an oblique reference to that one person from that one nation. Half of mine and my wife's folks are from said Country and I have nothing but respect for it and I don't appreciate my remarks being represented as some sort of stereotypical i.e. bigoted remark! To illustrate my point, if a remark were to be made as saying people from:(choose one) any country, sex, race, whatever, etc are bad, that would be a bigoted or stereotypical statement. I have privately communicated with Dagobert2010 and he understands my point and informs me that I referenced the wrong country anyway! While German earthcaching was/is the object of the ONE persons extreme criticism, she does not reside there, so the joke is on me! Thanks again and now, hopefully, we can become more specifically on topic and stop taking time out for detours! Let's wait and see what Geoaware has up his sleeve and simply appreciate the effort!

Amen to everything you said. For my part in the detour, I'm sorry!

Any time you keep a record, numbers count! You make a good point regarding traditional geocaching, but I must respectfully disagree in part. There are dozens and dozens of examples of challenges based on hides. It is reflected in the growing number of power trails with hundreds of caches hid. Yes, there is no direct reward (badge/pin/etc.)other than the basking in the sunlight with what you have done (all those hides). Just look at the forums and how many folks enjoy the power trails. The acceptance of multi-hides is reward enough otherwise why have so many power trails been deveoped? While it's not our cup of tea, numbers is a growing part of geocaching. Finding or hiding caches, both are celebrated and I don't think either have ruined caching! More hides equal more finds and who or what is harmed? Again to Geoaware: best of luck with the new program and with or without hides, we will support your efforts!

To answer your question, it doesn't have to! My deepest and sincere apology since I contributed to the detour. I don't think I took the initial wrong turns, but I felt that I had to defend the program from the usual negativism from Germany. Secondly, with my plea to include hides in the new program, some misinformation was stated regarding my example of the recent archival process. I should have let 'sleeping dogs lie'. Good luck with the program and obviously with 60 ECs developed, I'll claim a bit of a bias in my plea to include hides. I simply hope the bias doesn't work both ways! In other words, if you aren't hiding, why would you want hides included? No, every road cut or outcrop shouldn't be an EC, but one thing about living in America, there are thousands of potential spots for ECs and we are lucky to have so many to find and so many for developing. Good luck with the program! Without or without hides, we look forward to it! Thanks.

I don't want to derail us, but even the parties involved understand that it was their own fault. When you stick to principles defiantly that aren't upheld by TPTB, there are consequences. Back to our subject, I can understand why people are less likely to make ECs than normal geocaches since it is far more labour intensive regarding permissions and research. I only have 5 of my own and am working on my 6th, but it would be nice if we could convince people just how fun it is. Perhaps a fancy little video like the "intro to geocaching" on the homepage of geocachingdotcom could illustrate the initial steps required to create your first EC might be of assistance. My mentioning of the archiving of 203 ECs was only to add an incentive to include hides in the new program. It was not to relive old topics, but since you mentioned it: You may not, but we live in the area most impacted by the archives. Please share your insights. The most puzzling statement is, "the parties involved understand that it was their own fault". How do you know this? It simply is not true as I understand at least one of the "parties involved" doesn't agree with the finding of fault! Guess which party? Please allow me one question, absent GS rightfully not speaking publicly as to their reasons, how do you know why the archive happened? You are either an insider 1.e. member of TPTB or have incorrect leaked information! I also do not want to derail this topic and did not intend to do so, but your remarks did the derail and left very faulty implications that some of us felt needed clarification. Now to Carbon Hunter's original suggestion, please consider using EC developed as part of the new program. Thanks.

"Any chance of expanding the levels for hides too?" I too would whole heartedly endorse this idea. Since we recently lost 203 ECs due to the archive actions of GS, there hasn't been much enthusiasm for replacing them. Maybe a little emphasis on hides would help with the replacements or at least spur the development new additional earthcaches. Thanks for listening.

Thanks Harry. I finally read all 10 EC write ups and your and your buddies logs. It sounds like you had fun but left plenty of doubt as to the geological implications. I also noticed a nearby EC regarding the New York Harbor Estuary. Even with the non-geological aspects, it still looks like fun to do the trail! Thanks again. I know you and your friends have been to some of our ECs and are serious reviewers, (not the official kind!) P.S. I still wish the trail was closer!

What is off-topic about negative comments about the EC Masters program? I respect that many will be excited about the new levels (as they are about the old levels), but it's not the case for me. Personally, I'd prefer if no EC Masters program existed at all. Cezanne Cezanne, while I couldn't disagree with you more and am looking forward to the new Masters program, I defend your right to speak out and believe you/we were on topic. Please give the new program a chance. Who knows, maybe you will see some benefit. I also know that some folks do suffer from a lack of numerous ECs and I wish that wasn't true, but not all situations can be accommodated. Thanks.

Sorry, but I thought the topic was the Earthcache Master Program and I simply responded to someone's unjust criticism of it. Even though I totally disagree with her criticism, it was about the EC Masters Program and my response was to her criticism of The Earthcache Masters Program. Thanks. Isn't it a little early to suggest that you would close the thread? Opinion and opinion only, lately you folks have been a bit quick to close or threaten to close threads! Thanks for listening.

cezanne, wasn't your earlier gripe that the masters program was the reason too many 'inferior' ECs were being developed? I didn't bother to go back to reread your earlier posts (once was enough), but I am sure your thesis was based that the downside of the program was poor ECs. If so, why would you have any gripes with the new program which has the total emphasis on finding earthcaches. Do you think the program will create some sort of EC Finders Cult? Yes, we know that some live in areas with abundant earthcaches and others do not. Who said life is fair? We also appreciate that there are others whom cannot get out to find ECs because of physical limitations. I wish that was not so, but it is a reality. Again, sometimes life is not fair. With my age, in the not too distant future, I will not be able to seek out the 4 and 5 terrain ECs. I will not like it, but that's life! Maybe if you developed a few earthcaches yourself instead of all the criticism, others would follow suit and more ECs would be available. You can't have it both ways. You gripe about too many poor ECs and yet complain about too few ECs to find! Ar least some folks are helping the game by trying their hand at developing earthcaches! In my opinion, developing ECs is the greatest contribution we can make. Sure it is tough, but if we all just sit in the bleachers and not join in the game there wouldn't be a game! Thanks. P.S. Please explain the seemingly contradiction of these two statements of yours. On one hand you don't want: "cachers who achieve higher ranks are regarded as better cachers/people" Yet you propose: "I rather would like to see a somehow more exclusive EC program that focuses on those really interested into geology and not trying to teach a little bit to those not really interested." I may be wrong, but in your mind, you appear to be trading one elitist group for another. Why not be more inclusive?

WOW!

Please be patient. Our friend in Germany is working on it as Geoaware's consultant! Just kidding! lol P.S. I too am anxious to see the new program. We found our 250th EC the other day. I'm also working one in the Cayman Islands.

A bit over my head, but you raise some very interesting points, and I'm eager to hear what others have to say about this. May I ask what your qualifications are? You do indeed sound as though you know what you're talking about. I'm not an attoreny but I've been sparring with the Forest Service for over 30 years. I've worked on many lawsuits agaisnt the FS (including one that went to the Supreme Court). I've filed hundreds of administrative appeals and have sued them multiple times without an attorny (pro se) and won each time (I got to argue in court against 5 attornies once). Myotis, many, many thanks for your input. I, like knowschad, are most impressed with your work. Those of us who are directly impacted are discussing the situation. If I may summarize your posts, the statements that I quoted of one District Ranger's Office (District 8, Jefferson National Forest, Virginia) do not have the backing of law and cannot be legally enforced. Am I correct? Thanks.

Thanks Harry. Interesting, but I haven't taken the time to read them all yet and I will do that. Ten within .5 miles, WOW! Too bad they are not a little further South.