thebruce0

You mean this? ...almost there. Your problem is that "should be" clause. You're telling CO's how to treat their caches they feel no longer have accurate ratings. The point is - no, rather the CO's should do whatever they feel is appropriate for the listing. That is the right (eta: and responsibility) given to them by Groundspeak. If they choose to archive and relist, great. If they choose to alter the ratings, great. They are under no obligation to take past finders' stats into consideration. If the CO wants to help facilitate a fun game for everyone with the least drama while exercising their rights within the defined rules, then the best option, if not re-listing, is to post the details of the alteration in the notes for historicity. Cache finders also have no right to demand that CO's retain listing properties statically for the remainder of its active life, just because they found it and it gives them a combo they didn't have before. Priority is to an accurate cache listing - whether it's new or old. If you insert a "so and so should do this or that", you are now forcing your play style (as in, implying that anyone who doesn't is 'doin it rong'). Qualify it with a reason, like "to avoid drama", rather than just the implied "this is the way it should be done". Some people don't care to avoid drama. Well ye know, they aren't doing anything wrong, against the rules. Challenge cachers will always exist. CO's who change cache listing properties will always exist. Neither of these are doing anything wrong, but both of these will clash. So to attempt to minimize that clash, challenge cachers and COs who alter stats should play the game realizing the other exists, and find a compromise playstyle that A) encourages accurate listings for caches to be found and allows people to play the game in various fun, friendly, and legitimate ways.

Well, geekbench is showing huge improvements to the 5 over the 4S (including other smartphones) http://www.iphoneincanada.ca/iphone-5-2/purported-iphone-5-geekbench-result-beats-top-android-phones/ Although the ratings have all been altered just a bit. Nonetheless, the 5 still more than doubles the 4S in processor power. How much of an effect it has on GPS, not sure yet. Who's getting one today? =)

OT: So long as folks with smart phones can still cram film cans under shrubbery every 529' along mundane roadways, 'that number' will do nothing but rise. Where did that come from? Come on, are you really sinking that low? What about all the GPS owners who still cram film cans under shrubbery every 529' along mundane roadways? I suppose that will continue to happen and inflate the numbers. /OT

ditto ...even as someone who enjoys and regularly aims for stats challenges! I know that things can change. I have no right to demand CO's return their adjusted cache stats to the way they were the day I found them. That's ludicrous. So, as per the cache seeker process repeated repeatedly in this redundant discussion: I make note of any cache stats as of the day I found them, and verify with the challenge owner how to handle potential cache listing alterations for qualifying caches that are out of my control. Consider that part of the fizzy "challenge".

When you changed a rare combo of a cache because it got really easy many years down the road, you are really changing of what you advertised when you first start up cache page. You are arguing a play style, your preference, not the preference of every CO who plays. I'll say it again: that is an option, but it is not a rule, it is not a requirement. Groundspeak has made the maintenance of a cache listing the responsibility of the owner. You may feel there is a line between big and small changes that dictate relisting or altering, but the fact of the matter is, there is no line. It is entirely the CO's discretion. It's not about advertising a cache. To some, they like the attention rare combos bring. To others, they would very much rather a listing be accurate, regardless of "rarity". Exactly. So, it's up the cache owner to decide what is being advertised, and what they feel is appropriate action with their cache listing to keep it accurate according to them. I'm not defending a "deal with it" attitude - from either side. I'm saying, the truth of the matter is, it's not just about the finder, and it's not just about the owner. But the owner has final say on the properties of their listing, presuming they are striving for accuracy and not intentionally misleading. Archival or adjustment is up to the CO, and there is not a cacher or previous finder can do about that. Play styles. Not everyone plays that way, and it's certainly not a rule. Apart from "customers" (sorry, no), yes - their finders are their priority. People who will be going to find a cache. Not people who already did. The owner can themselves choose whether to cater to past finders or future finders. The owner can choose whether to archive and re-list or alter the properties. They are under no obligation to do either, except to ensure their listing is not a danger to those who find it. Those who find it, if they feel the listing is not accurate or they have some other beef with it, have the right to log a NM or NA at their discretion, or take up the issue with the CO, or take it up with a reviewer, or take it up with appeals. No, that is an exception that you have inserted. It is not a guideline nor a rule, and no CO is under that obligation or responsibility. It is solely their choice if they see fit.

Sure, that is an option, but it is not a rule, it is not a requirement, so by extension you are saying the owners who choose not to do that are screwing over past finders. You are forcing your play style on others. I'm saying recognize that that will not always happen. Guaranteed. COs have the right not to do that. And you come off the jerk by telling off those people.

+1 Archiving and relisting should be entirely up to the cache owner's opinion. Altering the difficulty, terrain, or any other property should be entirely up to the cache owner's opinion. This is the right granted to the CO from Groundspeak, and is supported in the guidelines. And as has been reiterated numerous times through the thread, that doesn't mean the CO or cachers should have the attitude that only their play style matters. Understand that people have challenges based on listing properties. Understand that COs have the right to alter listing properties at any time. Understand that listings are first and foremost to be as accurate as possible, according to the CO, in order for finders to have a safe and accurate experience. Recommendations: CO's, if you don't republish a listing, then post any alterations to your cache in the log history so it's recorded there for people who care about stats retroactively. Cachers, if you are doing a challenge based on listing properties, make a record of any qualifying listings' properties and check with the challenge creator on how they wish to deal with changing cache properties. This seems to be the safest and most respectful way for people to play - a little bit more work for both sides to accommodate the other, but much less (inherent) angst and controversy over who's "rights" are being trampled in this game.

Oh yeah, this was my chuckle of the morning! And this is why if I change any listing-specific property, I post a note/maint log, so that the change becomes historical record, whatever degree of a change it is. A listing description change does not become historical record (not publicly at least, if Groundspeak keeps a changelog)

As I mentioned previously (in response to you btw) yes, this has happened before and continues to happen. The details of that example and how it's dealt with are in that comment.

Oh we're very familiar with the drama around here. We have a fizzy challenge Tequila 81 - fill the grid with finds that were only placed before April 18, 2008 and found after. Some of the combos are very, very, very rare. There have been instances when a rare cache the owner knows is popular for that challenge is altered. But the challenge owner Tequila knows this happens, and makes it clear that qualification is for cache ratings when they're found. So if one of these rare old caches changes, there's an ongoing list of accepted exceptions if someone reviews their qualifications and finds a hole. This is the nature of doing a stats-based challenge. Things change. There's nothing by rules that anyone can do to stop that, because they must favour cachers who have to find the cache. So the onus is on challenge creators, and challenge cachers to find a way to deal with retroactive alterations.

Here's another option for you: Archive the GC codes and the ratings when you complete and qualify for the challenge. Note them somehow. Or encourage the CO to verify the stats at that time, because you have no control over future alterations to those cache properties and want to make sure the CO knows you qualify. Ratings are definitely more important and relevant to current finders than past finders. There's no debating that. Well no. Even a .5 change in D or T can mean the difference between a stats-based challenge qualification and not. So any change can affect past finders, regardless of degree. Cachers: If you're doing a stats-based challenge, document everything you can at the time you qualify and ensure the CO knows this. Keep the stats for future reference if anything changes. Owners: Realize people care about stats retroactively and provide a record in the listing logs of any fundamental listing updates you make to make the game easier for those people. Give and take. Simple. Sticking anything to anyone is never a good thing.

Yeah, regardless of Android, I'd presume the battery would be better in the 5, and with better processing internals the GPS may be a bit faster. At this point it's still speculation tho. What I'm suggesting for people who are upgrading, unless you really really really want the iPhone 5, my recommendation for upgrade has changed. I upgraded from the 3GS to the 4S because its improvement over the 4 was pretty significant. But, the 5 isn't really all the improved from a hardware standpoint over the 4S. I don't think it's worth upgrading to the 5 from the 4S, but now seeing how small the gap is, I'm also iffy about whether it's worth upgrading from the 4. I think if Apple wants to regain some lead, the 5S is going to have to be a much bigger leap in hardware, so barring strong desires, I think the 4 may sufficient for a while until we find out about the next iteration Anyway... I'm hoping at least the there's some noticeable improvement in its GPS features, from battery life to accuracy and speed. I wonder if the Apple Store would let someone take a display 5 out for a geocaching test run

With the announcement this week of the iPhone 5, I don't believe there was any coverage of the internal GPS hardware specs. I thought it would be informative to have a thread to discuss iPhone 5 specific experiences or news / reviews / data that people come across. Obviously hands-on from new owners won't be for a short while, but until then, has anyone seen or heard word of the GPS specifications of the 5 or if there are even any improvements? Disclaimer: Please keep this thread on topic. I don't want this to turn into a place for GPS vs smartphone debate, which gps device is better. Please try to keep replies to objective discussions of the iPhone 5's technical capabilities, or improvements over previous models, and any personal experiences. tnx I don't believe gps support has changed in this iteration: A-GPS, Glonass, Cell ID, Wi-Fi positioning... but with the internals being upgraded a bit and iOS 6 on the horizon, how does the iPhone 5 fare in practice If anyone's planning to get the 5 at launch or very soon, please come back and share your experiences

Keep in mind, any DT change will mess up someone's grid. Doesn't matter if it's -2 to the terrain 3 years later so place a new cache - what if it changes from 1.5 to 1? or 4.5 to 4? Might seem an insignificant change so a pointless one, but nonetheless, the owner may have a legitimate reason for the change. So regardless of scale of the change, does the CO have a right to change a cache rating at any time, to any degree? Yes. Because there's no Groundspeak rule saying they can't. Ratings are made to be adjustable at the CO's will. It might annoy cachers who watch their stats, and moreso when finds multiple years in the past are changed, especially those 'rare combinations', but ultimately that doesn't matter. The core of the game relies on accurate D/T ratings for the listings because the one thing ALL cachers have in common is finding a cache with a D/T rating (not completing fizzy challenges), and only the CO has the right to either provide what they feel are the accurate ratings, or to re-list a new cache. All that said, speaking as someone playing both sides of this fence - as a stats tracker for challenges and as a CO with updated cache ratings - the process I use is to post a note when the rating changes, to and from what and when, and add the update to the description. As a CO, I've then provided what I feel are accurate ratings, and provided all the info necessary for stat tracker cachers. As a stat tracker, if something about an old cache changes (perhaps I notice I no longer qualify for a challenge I know I did previously), I'd have the proof of the original rating and when the change was made. If I'm tracking it in GSAK, I can force it to keep the old rating. If not, I can kindly take the problem up with the particular challenge cache owner to decide how they want to deal with qualifying caches being changed retroactively, and work forward from there (hopefully they accept the rating as of when it was found). No cacher or owner has "rights" in this game beyond what are explicitly outlined in Groundspeak rues/guidelines, or determined/interpreted by reviewers or appeals. But in an effort to be nice to people, if you choose, just try to respect people's different playing styles and preferences. *shrug*

If you use gmail (or possible other email services), then the free app Boxcar can effectively give you this. What you do is create a filter in gmail (on the web page) that when you receive an email that matches whatever criteria you want, you forward the email to a special boxcar email address. Then the boxcar app can be set to give a unique alert sound for the matching emails. I use this to do that for messages from my family and I keep meaning to set up one for geocaching alerts but I haven't done it yet. It's a little klunky how it works, but it does the trick. I do hope that iOS 6 has this feature though and we don't need anything like Boxcar to do it for us. For me, I set up an alias email for my geocaching account, which forwards email to my personal inbox, as well as mobile email through Rogers. So, while I never read the email that goes instantly to my phone, the alert I receive contains the sender's email address. If the sender is noreply@geocaching.com I know it's a GC-related email. From noreply@Groundspeak.com means a newsletter or forum notification. Either way, as soon as I get that alert, I open up my mail app and download the new email - instant instant email notification The way I see it, any other service you employ will still have somewhat of a notification lag. The SMS notification of new email to my phone is as fast as it'll come, as it comes straight from Rogers on my plan. After I know there's an incoming email, I can just check it manually if I'm free to do so. It would of course be nice if the instant email notification would include more than just the sender's email address, but that's sufficient for the way I use it.

Try the Everytrail app I actually recommend that as it's the one I use when I want to track logs on the iPhone. It does run in the background (while you're using a different geocaching app), and the integration with their website is wonderful. Considering you're already used to Everytrail, you should pick it up nice and easy. They have a free and paid version. The AA backup I have is an iPhone jack. I don't see a problem with that if using rechargeable AA's, I have chargers for them. Moved away from proprietary battery packs. & the only benefit to the USB would potentially be to power other mobile devices with USB inputs... laptop's the only thing that comes to mind, and 4 AA's aren't going to power a laptop heh

I'd love to hear some official update on this as well...!

Clearly, geocachers' opinions are across the board, both new and prolific. There's no debating the improved technical capabilities of an average dedicated gps over an average smartphone when it comes to GPS quality (likewise the best gps over the best smartphone). But general caching with a higher-end smartphone is perfectly feasible, if your location/environment/satellite coverage is sufficient. And personally, as I will keep suggesting, if doing anything where safety is an active concern (deep woods, jungle, lengthy excursions, etc) it's always prudent to have, if not use primarily, a quality dedicated GPS. That's its home turf Use what you're comfortable with, whatever it is you prefer. If you're looking, try out a few if you can and choose; or don't. Just use something you're happy with, and learn how to use that device optimally!

Impressive! Woo! Congratulations my friend Carless, unite!

So... if you don't have a handheld then you don't love the hobby, even if you're a premium member? As mentioned, quickest and easiest solution (and not even expensive really at all) is an external battery pack. The best, IMO, are AA packs, as you can share batteries with other devices and have as many on hand as you want (for those very long trips away from other power sources including vehicle). I got mine for ~$20 off the net, haven't gone back to my previous proprietary backup battery once. Follow the battery saving tips mentioned earlier as well. Unfortunately the official app doesn't yet have a way to turn off GPS while still in the app. I really wish they'd add that ability! I use the Geosphere app almost exclusively, and I only turn on the GPS when I want to get my location, then I turn it off and use the map to get where I want to go. That saves huge battery life. I suppose having a child handle the phone makes this of more concern I have no case for my 4S, and have never put much weight on having a case. I've never bricked any of my smartphones by dropping them (I'm careful enough with them) though I have dropped two phones in water (and saved 1) oops. heh. Honestly, IMO, if you take care of your multi-purpose expensive digital device, a case isn't as much of a concern. Even having a case, I'd still be worried about dropping it. I just don't want to drop it, at all; and proceed accordingly (but yes, accidents can still happen; lack of "ruggedness" just isn't, to me, a downfall of caching with a smartphone). Otterbox is definitely one of, if not the only, case that I'm tempted to own. Its durability and ease of use are second to none. Other thoughts/comments... I've always hated the digital compass. I never geocache using distance/bearing, unless map imagery is of absolutely no help. Even offline - out of cell coverage - cache the maps in the area you're going to, at multiple zoom levels (dragging the map over the area should be enough for in-app map caching), before leaving data. Then turn off data so it's not a battery drain trying to reconnect. GPS still works when there's no data, but it will be a little slower as it's no longer getting a boost from cell tower triangulation. Even under heavy canopy, it still works sufficiently (at least in my experience, to my satisfaction ) But that's definitely where dedicated handhelds shine. When I'm out on deeper rural excursions, I'm typically with friends and they have handhelds as well, so with safety a factor, we always have dedicated GPS devices (though I still use my 4S). Hopefully not! But it all depends on what expectations you set on the device you purchase You could still be disappointed if you're looking primairly for convenience and flexibility in a digital device while caching , or only compare it to what you're used to (and that goes both ways). I'm still so glad that the 2nd time I dropped my phone in the lake it kept working. The first time I was above a pond looking down over a culvert and my 3G slipped out of my shirt pocket. #derp Couldn't get to it in time. Bricked it. The 2nd time I was on a shoreline, and of course the same thing happened as I bent down - 3GS fell out and landed submerged near my feet. But I grabbed it within a couple of seconds, did the proper drying-out deed for smartphones, and it started working again. That 3GS lasted another year & a half until I decided to upgrade to the 4S. The 3GS still works. Point: Submersion itself doesn't brick a phone. Just get it quick and make sure it dries properly before using it. Then cross your fingers Nonetheless, a waterproof case or a very durable case are definitely smart investments (I may be ignorant for not having one, and it might come to bite me again, but point being, it's not a drawback to caching with an iphone, imo )

And keep in mind that some issues are related to the app programming, and some to the cartridge coding. Also Wherigo is essentially emulated on the iphone, as it doesn't have an inline parser; ie, the app doesn't understand the LUA source, it simply runs the executed code, whereas the garmin has full lua support, so presuming good cartridge programming, should run faster and better than via the iPhone app, by default. But yes, better GPS hardware will still certainly have a positive impact on the Wherigo experience

I ordered last week-ish, so just waiting for mine now I'm about to start work on a commemorative coin related to my 366-day geocaching journey and a personal family story, so I'm really hoping this book is a an inspiration and guide for effective design can't wait!

Consider yourself corrected. That said, as mentioned above, I'd definitely not recommend anyone go on deep woods excursions with only a smartphone and no dedicated GPS device. Not just for geocaching concerns, but personal safety. Plus, I don't think anyone here said an iPhone is "all you'd need" (in any possible circumstance) However... You're spot on. Pocket queries can be downloaded for offline use on the phone, as can maps - topo, satellite, and road, if you use the proper app. The official app isn't the best, IMO, for offline use, but as far as I know it is offline capable. I use Geosphere, which does cache maps (the most recent xMB of map data viewed), and uses its own offline database exclusively (until v3 is released, which will have Live API support) - its database is updated through GPX downloads and PQs. So yep, when there's no data signal (not when the phone is in airplane mode - which also disables gps) the iPhone can still be used for offline caching. Field notes can be saved, maps will load from its cache, and geocaching can continue unabated so that field notes can uploaded to logs once back in connectivity. First, indeed there are many areas especially out of urban centers where there is no data coverage (even IN urban centers, which is extremely annoying ). But if you're going out into rural areas where you think there will be no coverage, just make sure to cache your maps, or use an app that allows you to download maps for offline use. Just remember not to turn on Airplane mode on the iPhone as that disables the GPS as well. Unfortunately if you often cache in areas with no data coverage then caching with a smartphone (while doable) would just be far more trouble than it's worth But it's not the gps itself that's the problem, it's just knowing how to use the smartphone optimally when there's no data. For some, it's not worth the effort, and that's fine :

I know, I know, if I reply to another iPhone thread then my response will be pretty predictable... but I thought I'd just address your two concerns from the OP. Main concession: it is definitely good to have that dedicated hand-held, especially when caching in the woods. So, quick disclaimer: I started caching with the 3GS, and recently moved to the 4S at launch. Been caching over 3 years, exclusively with iPhone. Cached in heavy forest, in wilderness, thick urban landscape, desert, and used the gps over water (w/o cell signal). Always been sufficient for caching. So for point #1: Accuracy. I find that if you focus on using the distance and bearing (compass) when caching with a digital device, you'll end up with far more frustration than needed (whether with a smartphone or a handheld). Especially on the iPhone, if you use the satellite imagery, then it's much easier to visualize and grasp the area you're in and where you're going - the only drawback in my experience is when A) there are no visual landmarks on the imagery nearby by which to navigate, or the satellite imagery in the area is very low quality/inaccurate (more noticeable in remote areas - though if you're going to a remote area, whether caching or not, one should always take a dedicated GPS device, imo, if only for safety), or C) the posted coordinates are incorrect (and this is a drawback to ANY gps device ). Some might think using satellite imagery is cheating, but hey you cache however you want, yes? (to which I'd also say using anything other than a physical compass and paper maps would be cheating ) For point #2: Battery. A few general things to consider here... First, when not using the GPS, turn it off. The official app doesn't currently allow that (though Geosphere does), but if you background the app, the GPS should stop running (eg, for when traveling between caches). Second, if traveling between caches with a vehicle, plug the phone in, however briefly. Third, you could pick up an external battery pack. I don't recommend single unit proprietary batteries that require a plug to charge again before using, but rather an external AA battery pack. I bought this AA battery pack ($20) a while back and it's proven invaluable! A handful of batteries, or a couple of sets of rechargeables for a long, full day of caching works wonders. I typically can get a decent caching trip on one full phone charge, but if it's near dying, 4 AA's can provide another full phone charge. Usually that's enough. And rechargeables don't cost anything extra each use (like buying more batteries). Essentially, accuracy and battery life are weaknesses of smartphone caching, but they're far from hindrances to still having wonderful, exciting experiences, and they're not barriers to actually finding any kind of geocache (which many seem to think ). Quite often I have friends glaring down at their dedicated GPSr's wandering in circles, still waiting for it to settle, yet I've already located where the cache is and find it before them. Ultimately, it's not so much the device that matters, but moreso how you cache with it. Many will say: When you're within 20-30 feet, put your device away (whatever it is) and use your geosense All that said, the optimal caching kit would consist of a smartphone and a quality dedicated GPS handheld, as that combo definitely covers all the bases

No, you're right, apps by default don't 'run' in the background, they're simply in a paused state, not active at all, not using any extra battery juice. The exception is that some apps may make use of an iOS feature that's been granted the ability to run in the background, like the GPS or music player. Those will use extra battery as long as they're active. But there are ways to tell if that's happening. The GPS, afaik, is the biggest drain if running in the background (for example, some GPS apps allow you to save a tracklog while using other apps) - in those cases you should see the little arrow in the upper right all the time, whether in your home screens or in an app that you know doesn't use GPS. If that's there, you know there's an app that's still using it. In short, closing all the app icons that show up in the app slider won't save battery, unless there are apps that are actively using one of the few backgroundable iOS features. As a final note, the Geocaching app if minimized won't continue to use the GPS until you bring back to the forefront. So that's one way of saving battery life if you use that app. When you don't need GPS, hit the home button.