thebruce0

"Consecutive Day 1. Oops, I forgot to find a cache yesterday." heh, to me that almost sounds sarcastic. Like he didn't actually forget, but for whatever reason knew he wouldn't get one. Still, whether forgotten or not, to overtly bring an end to such a long streak... that's integrity. Also, gut-wrenching

(disclaimer: I hate just using the term "smartphone" in these discussions - FAR to vague; and when you read someone comparing a brand smartphone to a GPS, don't presuming it applies to all smartphones, whether a good or bad experience) My field testing comparison of iPhone 4S with dedicated GPSrs is through group caching. And more often than not, the vast majority of people still paying attention to their GPS near GZ (forest setting) are calling out their readings - and they're all over the place. 5m here, 12m there, 1m way over there... (and sometimes I'm standing on top of the cache, watching for a few seconds ) People need to realize that their device accuracy - as mentioned earlier - is effectively irrelevant when within 10-30 feet or so. Too many factors determining whether the cache is actually at the location your personal GPS is telling you is GZ, primarily the unknowable factor - the owner's GPS accuracy (and skill). Put the GPS down when you believe you're in the right area, and search (if the hide hasn't already become obvious). Personally, I hate hunting by distance/bearing. I use the imagery most of the time as it's quicker to see and use, doesn't require so much active battery use, and will get you about as close to GZ as an average gps (taking into account imagery misalignment and whatnot). Map will show you first where to head - then ideally no more gps use until you reach near gz. If your senses are honed, you may even spot it before needing it again. But when near, sometimes I'll watch my location pin in relation to the cache pin - regardless of accuracy - and see how the phone visually interprets its GPS readings; whether it hovers or circles or stops, and how large the accuracy bubble is. Visual averaging Even all that said, the 4S accuracy tends to be right up there with my friends' gpsrs, though more often a little slower (and position guessing after a quick hike can be annoying as you have to wait for it to realize you've stopped moving but I think some GPSs do that too) Anyhow. I've upgraded to the iPhone 5S now, and I'm waiting for this weekend when I'm doing a day caching trip with friends, so I can test out its speed and accuracy in the field. Very much looking forward to it

Look up Unless you mean specific steps. In which case, it's just under Settings > General > Cellular; turn everything off. GPS will stay on.

Not with iPhone. Airplane mode on iOS turns off satellite GPS as well. To test for satellite GPS ability (if the hardware specs aren't enough for you), then you need to turn off all cell/data functions manually in Settings. GPS should still work (from 3GS and up). As for Android/BB/Win, that I can't help with. =P

Ah ok, so there are some devices that do that. I feel vindicated in my constant statements that brands and models do matter when talking about "smartphones" thx for the info.

To answer the original question, yes the apps will work offline - if you know you're going somewhere with no signal, then before you get there try going to your map and moving and zooming around the places you think you'll want to look. That should cache the maps themselves automatically (to a certain amount of data). Experiment around with it and see how much you can cache beforehand. You can turn off your data (or turn on airplane mode) to see how much was cached and how much you'd be able to do when out of range. For other data, just make sure you've downloaded everything to the app that you think you'd want or need. AFAIK, every geocaching app can work offline, to various degrees. I think the starting concept with the Groundspeak app is to go caching while online with the option to store data for offline use, whereas Geosphere's starting concept is for offline caching, with downloading data and incorporating the Live API to retrieve data for offline caching. You don't need a handheld GPS to go caching offline. But you're of course free to get one if you want

Just a minor point of clarity (and nit picking a bit, I admit , and based on my knowledge only of Apple devices) - GPS data isn't downloaded over the cell network; depending on the phone model, it may use cell tower triangulation to speed up location services - this is never off, as far as I know, as long as the device GPS functionality is on (and there is cell tower service). Satellite GPS data is always retrieved by standard GPS technology - locating satellite signals (for phones with said GPS technology, and not just the emulated location services via cell/wifi locating). Having no cell connection only makes GPS locating slower on certain smartphones because there are no towers (no cell service) by which to triangulate. But as long as the phone has GPS capability, that will always work (as you say, just like a handheld GPS receiver). Point to remember, OP: Don't put your phone in airplane mode (at least if it's an iphone, which is all I can speak for) as that also turns off GPS reception completely. If you want to save battery while you're knowingly out of cell service, then you could turn off all your data and cell options manually, but leave it in normal mode. GPS will continue to work, while A-GPS (cell tower triangulation) won't be available.

What's "accurate"? And which "iphone"?

That is truly sad. That's the biggest problem I see with the 'submit the code' method of logging. You can of course say "cheaters will cheat" and "it's not about the numbers" so who cares if someone 'cheats'? Nonetheless, the intent of the system is being abused. I don't know if there's a fool-proof way to minimize 'bad' logs. At least with caches, there's a physical log book that the owner has the choice to review for online log verification. But here, how can an owner know whether a log by someone who did the cache and flew home the next day was actually legitimate and not someone false-logging from across the world? That other M game had similar issues in its youth, when the QR codes were plain links to the listing in question. Easily copyable and captureable by anyone (at least within the 1000ft radius, as at the time, or if the user managed to spoof their gps location or the communication data to the web server). Anyway, point being, a simple code entry to post an essentially "valid" log is just asking for excessive abuse, especially if there are people (and there are) who want numbers and icons regardless of how they get them.

Devil's advocate: This is Groundspeak's product and service. They have every right to limit what customers can do or try, for whatever reason they see fit (generally for the betterment and control of their product and service), to set up rules for general use and activity - while trying new things themselves. Especially if what they try is blatantly in contradiction to rules they set up for all of us users. For example, business and advertising. It's perfectly legitimate that they not want users to "advertise" in listings (intentionally or not) without express approval, yet go about their own actions which incorporate business partnerships and strategic marketing. That is entirely acceptable. We are not partners of Groundspeak, we are not equals to their staff (or even volunteers, who also must still abide by the same rules we do). Now, we may not like some of where their developmental focus may appear to be placed (since we don't know what's going on behind the scenes - and I think rightfully so, what with the raging engine of ranters, entitled customers, and rabble-rousers that would erupt in these forums)... but we have been given the ability and right to express our concerns and desires -- they can choose to listen or to ignore. Our response is our continued or discontinued funding of their product. Be glad we even have a forum. We don't have a right to do the same things that Groundspeak does on geocaching.com, and they aren't "breaking their own rules" when they do something we are not allowed to. / End devil's advocacy. Now, where'd I put that pitch fork?

Geosphere - version 3 (version 2 is now out of date and unavailable, and does not have Live API support). Highly recommended for more than casual cachers. The capabilities, features, and flexibility in the app far outweigh that of the Groundspeak app. BUT, as such, it is a more complex app to use and has a higher learning curve. Given that hurdle, there are many reasons why it's a worthwhile purchase if you're out caching regularly and travel a lot. I typically like to call it a 'mobile GSAK' But having a developer who is on the ball and interactive in the official forum is a huge benefit. The app, having features from a flashlight toggle for use while navigating during a night cache (no app switching), to GSAK integration for easy importing and exporting of cache data, to online and offline searching and filtering, and full integration with your online profile via the API for pocket queries and bookmark lists -- there is no question that Geosphere is the stronger app. But it has a steeper learning curve. You can certainly go caching without a problem with Groundspeak's app. There's nothing inherently 'wrong' with it. But there is value added in using Geosphere (and it's $2 cheaper ) especially if you're a premium member.

I'll summarize the hot-button topics: Keep in mind, there's a wider range of technology under the term "smartphone" than there is under "dedicated GPS" (ref'd as handhelds below), so direct comparison is not possible, and comments like "handhelds are better than smartphones" (or vice versa) should be given no weight. Presume any time the "handhelds" or "smartphones" label is used below, it's referring in general to the class of device, and the 'average' across its spectrum. 1) General use Handhelds - these are masters of one function (anything related to gps navigation) Smartphones - jack of all trades, master of none (but mid-high end are darn good at them all) 2) Durability * Accidents can always happen, regardless of inherent durability or preparation. Handhelds - on average, handhelds are naturally more durable, so the durability is factored into the purchase price. They generally have the advantage because of that. Smartphones - most smartphones (probably all) are not intended to be jostled around, or taken to precarious situations without extra care being taken. Add-ons can be purchased that increase its durability and/or water proofing, thus raise its cost to be on par with handhelds. 3) Accuracy * When geocaching, no matter your device, having a precise accuracy on your own device is no guarantee that the cache will be found quicker or more easily. Beyond your control is whether the posted coordinates themselves are accurate, and all the factors that play into accurate coordinates, both under CO control and not. Regardless of device, it's best to arrive near GZ, and hone your geosense, using the provided description and/or hint when you're nearby. Handhelds - on average, handhelds generally have better accuracy since they are, after all, dedicated GPS devices. They're more sensitive to satellite signal so can pick up whatever's left over after signals squeeze through heavy forest cover, for instance, and may be able to pick up more satellites from greater distances. They are still susceptible to weather concerns, though not as impacted as smartphones. Smartphones - This is a significant area where brand and model absolutely count. In lower models, phones don't actually acquire satellite GPS signal - they use cell towers to triangulate and estimate the best location from there that it can. For iPhones, anything 3GS and up do have GPS satellite support. This means that their location abilities can be faster because they make use of triangulation and GPS; they can provide an estimated location by tower triangulation while they attempt to acquire satellites. The higher end smartphones with GPS and faster processors can also have a bit of a speed boost with triangulation and gps calculations. High end smartphone reception may still suffer slightly with weaker signals (under canopy, eg), but with a little bit more time accuracy can be just as good. Unless you're in a rush, it's not an issue. In practical use, as mentioned above, smartphone users with high end phones (iPhone 5+, latest Androids, etc) may report as good if not better capabilities than their handheld (though again, handheld make/model should be mentioned as well to be fair and precise) 4) Battery life * Like durability, handhelds and smartphones are inherently different, since smartphones do much more than GPS reception and the physical technologies are more battery intense (screen/touch/cell/etc). Smartphones - They will of course have a shorter inherent battery life, and so preparing with a battery add-on is recommended. External batteries do not have to be expensive. It'll boost the overall cost just a bit, but if you forgo a single-use battery (which requires an outlet to recharge before reusing) and buy an external AA addon (for example +$20), the benefit of sharing AA batteries and rechargeables with other devices makes battery life comparison a non-issue. Handhelds - Naturally longer battery life. nuff said. 5) Price * This is usually the deciding factor. Smartphones are more expensive. If you're only looking to geocache, a handheld may be more appropriate. But as a jack-of-all-trades, one must consider everything else gained by a smartphone purchase, if it's in the books. If you're getting a smartphone for geocaching, I would recommend not going below an iPhone 4S today, given their lowering price and capabilities. I can't speak for handheld price and capabilities, as I'm an exclusively iPhone geocacher. Handheld - You get what you pay for: A dedicated GPS, of the range in the price you research and buy. For GPS capabilities, they are on average better in general abilities than smartphones, on average. Smartphones - You get more when you pay more: It is, literally, a smart phone. If you put money into a good smartphone, you get a very, very smart phone. It's good at what it does, and it strives to rival dedicated handhelds in GPS technology. On the field, the mid-best models rival the better dedicated handhelds. * It'll cost more, but you can have a smartphone equipped for durability and battery life to be equal to a durable handheld. In that context, a high end smartphone can be faster to locate in general environments, while a dedicated handheld will generally still get higher accuracy. In a nutshell: The best handheld will always best the best smartphone at GPS technology. That's why it's a dedicated GPS. High end smartphones inherently provide more than sufficient geocaching capability. Both handhelds and smartphones suffer drawbacks from external factors like weather and location, and typically smartphones will suffer more as they are not dedicated to GPS reception. Typically, the solution to the drawbacks is a little more patience and preparation when using a smartphone for geocaching. Ultimately, get what is within your price range, and what you feel more comfortable with. Consider the area of the world in which you live, the type of weather or climate you regularly get, whether you're more urban (smartphones get an advantage) or rural (handhelds get an advantage), and how 'adventurous' you are (more preparation and cost for smartphones to be safe in more hazardous conditions). Where I weigh in 1st hand: I'm approaching 3000 finds, from across North America. I cache with Geosphere (highly recommended), I often take photos while caching, sometimes keep a GPS track log with a secondary app, and need to keep data/cell connectivity where available for email/communication. I started caching in 2009 with a 3GS: Cached in multiple environments, including a desert where I was the sole GPS holder with a group of adventurous non-cachers. No cell signal, but GPS was unhindered. Cached all maps in the app before losing cell/wifi, prepared for a day completely cut off from civilization. Still one of my best caching trips ever. Later, dropped it in a pond, killed it. I replaced it with a 3GS: Continued caching in multiple difficult environments. I had also given it a cheaper plastic backing for a bit more durability. Later, dropped it in a lake, learned from last time and let it dry properly - it continued to work flawlessly. I upgraded to a 4S: Bought the AA external battery pack; took FAR better care with it; and have not purchased a casing. Extremely satisfied with GPS capabilities in multiple environments (and by that I mean under heavy canopy, in wilderness w/o cell, sailing over water, etc). I have dropped it - only the back shattered, but remains together (it's like a nice cracked-glass design skin!), all internal functions unaffected (even camera and led). --> This weekend I went river-tube-caching with it, prepared with a waterproof box (for multiple items). Accidents can ALWAYS happen! A leather key fob wedged in the hinge one time making it not water proof, and it carried ~1cm of water for a while; tilted, my phone was half dipped in it for who knows how long. Software/firmware still worked, but some physical features were malfunctioning. Let it dry, and things are mostly back to normal, but the screen and home button may never be up to snuff. All else - good to go. I'll likely be upgrading to the next 5 at launch this fall anyway Case in point: Smartphones are more durable than you think. Also case in point: No matter how much preparation you do, regardless of inherent device protection, accidents can always happen. (a durable/waterproof handheld can still become cracked and lose its proofing; on the flipside, a friend lost his gps years ago running from a wasp nest, and earlier this year it was found, still on, and still working, pointing to the cache) Just remember: Is it worth paying through the nose for tip-top accuracy, when there's no guarantee posted coordinates themselves are accurate? Just remember: A group of geocachers all with different brands/makes/models of GPS-capable devices can (and will) report different readings when in an area searching for GZ. It's kind of humorous. Especially if you're the one using geosense and standing on top of the cache watching everyone else head down wandering in circles reporting different distances. This is not me saying that "smartphones are better". This is me saying that "handhelds are better than smartphones" is not conducive to informed decision-making. I personally don't care if anyone has a smartphone or a handheld. I just care that they know what they have, know its strengths and weaknesses, and are satisfied that their device is the best for their own caching habits. Also, that they know how to use it for best gps readings, especially if they are placing a cache. My official recommendation - if price is of no concern - is that the best setup for geocaching is a combination of a high-end handheld (for absolute best GPS capability) and a hazard-prepared mid-high end smartphone for connectivity, tools, and secondary GPS verification. Debates will continue to rage (especially in these forums) because everyone's experiences with various devices are different. Don't take one person's experience and presume it's the same for everyone or that it will be your experience (whether it's praise or hatred for smartphones or handhelds). Thank you for your time. PS, I think that was about the longest post I've made on this subject to date.

Actually, no. The smartphone can use cell tower triangulation (and wifi network locations) in addition to using real GPS satellite triangulation. Unless you've turned off the GPS antenna, which some people do to conserve battery life. With iPhones especially, a trick conserve power while still caching with gps is not airplane mode. That turns off GPS as well. Unfortunately there's no way to automatically switch to gps only. The trick is to manually turn off all data and cell connectivity. The GPS will remain active. Just make sure you've cached maps and downloaded everything you want before you turn data off This is how you can still use your phone as a gps in areas with zero cell reception, without wasting batteries trying to locate a signal. Then of course you can turn off gps location services for individual apps or globally if you want. I'm not actually sure if turning off all cell features and leaving GPS will leave the "A" of A-GPS still active (if the phone will still get its boost from cell tower triangulation) or if the phone really does become a GPS-receiver-only. But yes, iPhone 3GS and up have real GPS satellite reception, boosted by cell tower triangulation. (I can't speak for other high-end smartphones though; but I wouldn't be surprised if there were more friendly settings to allow the same flexibility in gps use)

Contrast that with a nice Garmin unit. I've dropped my 450T many times - no cracked screen or casing. I've taken it boating and fishing; it's been dunked under water many times - Still functioning as new. It's got a few minor scratches and one small nick on the screen due to my own negligence of leaving it on my backpack when I take my pack off and the GPS ends up on the ground face down. Yet, it still works perfectly, screen's still readable too. You conveniently left out my following paragraph which was qualification and reasoning as to why your response paragraph really is irrelevant (in my case, at least ) In my opinion, an external pack 'becomes' a part of the device, so whether I'm changing batteries in one single device, or in the attached accessory, it doesn't matter; and battery use is no longer an issue. In my opinion, a case that protects your device to whatever degree you feel it needs protecting (above and beyond, whether it is natively heavier duty or not) is always a good idea; and in my own case, my phone has proven its durability sufficiently, and I've taken and used it everywhere I have cached (including caves, over water, in the wilderness, and in desert, with and without data signal, and varying degrees of GPS coverage and strengths). Though just haven't been overseas yet Nothing and no one has given me a good reason (yet, at least) to make the purchase of and/or switch to a dedicated GPS device. To me, the 'disadvantages' (according to those used to a dedicated handheld) are far outweighed by the benefit (uses beyond simply gps capabilities) of my iPhone 4S and using one device. ** BUT, I absolutely agree that the best possible toolset for geocaching, to cover any potential issues or problems one might have, assuming money is of no concern, would be a high end GPSr and a mid- to high-end smartphone -- along with all the accessories listed above. Otherwise, use what works for you.

I've only ever used an iPhone - from 3GS to 4S, and I expect to upgrade to the next 5. Accuracy is not a concern when you change your style to realize that no device is guaranteed to put you on the cache spot, and every device to varying degrees needs care to assure as accurate a location as possible. If searching, get near gz and hone that geosense. If placing, take your time and use various strategies to verify that your coordinates are as accurate as you can make them - never rush. For durability, I always take care of my expensive equipment. Even so, I've dropped my 4S, the back has a nice 'broken-glass' appearance but still work 100%. I dropped my first 3GS in a pond, and lost it. Dropped my 2nd 3GS in a pond, and retrieved it (having learned) and let it dry properly, and it continued to work flawlessly until I upgrade to the 4S. I have not dropped that in water (only on the sidewalk where the back shattered ) Ok so this isn't sounding glowing... BUT, while accidents can happen, these things aren't delicate flowers to which nothing physical or remotely bumpy can happen or it falls apart. It's always a good idea to have some form of protection, but if it was naturally tough, I'd still be wary of doing something that would damage it. Durability of the device was never a concern for me (I also don't carry my device around my neck on a lanyard ) For battery, you can quickly and cheaply get an external pack that takes AA's, so you can share batteries with whatever other AA device you use. No more worries. Smartphones do a LOT more than just GPS reporting, so their battery life is naturally shorter. But like durability, you just be aware of what your device can handle, and prepare accordingly.

If you have a handheld, use that, at the very least alongside the phone if you're not confident in its reporting. Walk around gz a bit. I find sometimes that if the phone thinks its coordinates are good, it may not update unless you move. 'accuracy' may not get better than 5m especially under trees, but it's much easier to gauge how accurate the estimate is if you watch your location on the map (you natural have more doubt seeing numbers with a +/- than seeing where the center of the estimate is in relation to nearby landmarks; whether on satellite (which can be misaligned) or road view) I haven't tried that Perfect Mark app, but it sounds useful. Again, useful if the coordinate reporting doesn't 'stall' from lack of movement. Don't forget - if you use the handheld to get gps coordinates, do the very same thing! It's always good practice regardless of device to give the signal time to settle, average, walk around gz both for motion and to provide a physical range for averaging as well. (I've seen groups of cachers wandering around gz searching for a cache, each reporting different accuracies at different distances - there's no guarantee your device will be 100% accurate, whatever device it is - just do your best to get the most accurate reading you're comfortable with). Oh also! If you have friends who can help get gps readings, use them too, if you're still unsatisfied.

geodarts is right on. Also, what "smartphone" are you currently using? That at least lets us gauge what standard you're looking for, how high that 'bar' is. I mean, if the latest, greatest smartphone isn't good enough, you may need a high end expensive handheld. If it's an 8 year old flip phone or a phone with cell tower triangulation only, masked as "gps", then, well, I think an upgrade to your 'smart' phone is in order Any other details you can offer?

Dude, did you read my post? I said it isn't a smartphone game. It's a smartphone-capable game. The only kind of native game it is, is GPS-enabled devices. That's it.

Sidetrack! You are correct about one thing, it is not a new game. Pirates were great at treasure hunting. Look how far we have come... What I do understand is that this is already a "smartphone game". Myself and many others use their smartphone more then the standalone GPS unit. Another thing I "understand" is that things change and evolve... and I suppose when the smart phone goes out of style... Your game will go back to a standalone GPS game. Since you feel this is a smartphone game already. Try turning off the GPS function completely and hunt for a few in the woods or other non wide open area. No using clear air photos... That is why the restriction on open landscapes. Just you and the smartphone, I don't restrict air photos and maps though other than the ones that show a large object in an open field. Have to be fair. You can use tower triangulation if you want to. To be clear, it's not a "smartphone game", and it's not a "handheld GPSr game". It's just a game that makes use of GPS technology -- For any device that supports GPS technology. That means handhelds and smartphones are equally as important, useful, feasible, and acceptable. It's how you use the device, and the technical capability of your device - handheld OR smartphone (both exist across the spectrum). I'm really starting to greatly detest this ongoing "GPSr" vs "Smartphone" debate. Don_J: "hopefully it never will be" - if/when any handheld device other than a dedicated GPSr has technology that surpasses them, or is at least sufficient to play the game (we're already here), then yes, it will be. Accept that. Play with whatever device you want, and let anyone else play with the device they want. Mrdlg2u: It's only a smartphone game in that people can use a smartphone. Handhelds on average are still more capable than smartphones on average. So it's not time (yet?) to declare this a "smartphone game" -- Smartphone-capable, yes. Now back to the topic at hand... For cheaters, I think it's right ultimately not to take it to heart personally, because it is just a game. But cheaters can and do affect the experience for others, if posting bogus or fake logs. Many view a cache's log history as an indication of its status or the experience one might have in seeking it, or for hints and tips and whatnot. If the CO doesn't maintain the integrity of their cache history, then it can most definitely ruin the fun of the game for other cachers. The potential is there. That, along with the perspective of 'encouraging cheating by being apathetic about it' are why, depending on my cache, I may be more proactive about bogus logging. Intentionally bad logs are rare, barely happens at all, mistakes moreso, but as a CO I feel it is at least to some degree my responsibility to make sure my cache history(ies) are as accurate to the intended experience as to my satisfaction, keeping in mind the wide range of experience and determination of cachers that may attempt to find them (beginners to vets, to intelligent to slow). One that really really angered me was a local prolific and 'respected' cacher who purposefully trespassed to complete a 5 terrain cache, and posted photos to the find log, that weren't his, and lied about the entire experience. The owners of the cache knew that the only way to find the final was by water, lest you trespass. Not only did they lie in the find log, they trespassed, cheated, googled and used someone else's photos, and on top of that, signed people's names in who expressly didn't want their names in the log sheet because they didn't get the cache properly. That was deplorable. That is not something that should be acceptable. 1) it encourages blatant cheating 2) it misrepresents the cache 3) in this case it was technically illegal. Granted that's on the high end of the "cheating" spectrum, but it just goes to show what people can do if a blind eye is turned towards the act. Ultimately, I think it's a case by case scenario, but you can't just play the ignorance card and not care about it at all. It is just a game, but it's a game we all enjoy together. Let's try to encourage, and to keep, a high standard.

Same here. Theory: "Connection reset" every time a new browser session is started? I've had it now in the forums and on geocaching.com. After getting the error, a refresh fixes it. After waiting a while, the error returned (and likewise a refresh fixed it).

Well as far as I know, the only Wherigo app, or at least the official Wherigo app, for iOS (since that's the OP's context) is called Wherigo, and it definitely has map support. I don't know of any iOS app* that doesn't have a map view... * Maybe there is one now. But I would say that's a vast downgrade.

No data, other than map loading if you haven't already cached map tiles by viewing them. (ie, turn off data and you'll only see map tiles you've already viewed, so look at a whole bunch around the Wherigo area at relevant zoom levels before restricting your data)

Coincidentally, this JUST happened to me today. I'm finally getting to logging my caches from my vacation last week to Seattle, during which I picked up 2 TBs and dropped 1 off. Someone found the one I dropped off, and 'grabbed' it from the cache they didn't visit (the one I got it from) so they could drop it in the cache in which they found it (which is where I put it), then pick it up from there and drop it into the cache in which they dropped it. I'm torn as to whether to push for an accurate history (have them delete the logs so I can do my own tracking logs) or just forget the whole thing and log notes for the actions I did (which are effectively now done 'by' that user). The perfectionist in me wants them do delete their logs so I can accurately log mine, but the Canadian in me wants to just forget the whole thing and log notes. *sigh* I could say why, don't people just give it time so the correct TB logs can be posted (the waiting period as suggested above). I could say why don't people just at least put a quick placeholder there to ensure this sort of mix-up doesn't happen (hindsight, something I could have done). Who's fault is it for this mess? Both or neither? What's the best solution? *headdesk*

Well, again, define 'smartphone' and define 'GPS receiver'. There are wide ranges of both types of devices, so it's unfair to compare them overall and draw a general conclusion from that. Be prepared. External battery pack for a smartphone with a shorter battery life is greatly beneficial. Get one that takes AA's instead of a single-use-then-recharge-it proprietary battery, then you don't need an outlet, just a handful of batteries (and, GPS users typically think the same re batteries) If you're accident prone, highly cautious, or going over water, it's certainly beneficial. I've never had a water-proof case; I've dropped a 3GS in water years ago, and that was my only loss. I dropped its replacement 3GS in water and retrieved without harm (after drying properly). I've had every phone I've owned sprinkled with water, dipped slightly in a puddle, and generally had them not perfectly taken care of. My current 4S still works perfectly fine (and you should see it). Still, a protective case is always a Good Idea (but not essential). Simply put: Know what your device can handle, and if you think it'll be in situations beyond its limits, then be prepared and protect it. And that's true for smartphones AND handhelds. See above This is the most relevant point pertaining to device class and model. I could say smartphones have better accuracy than GPSrs - if I'm comparing the iPhone 5 with a 13 year old cheap GPSr. Or vice versa if comparing the iPhone 3G with the latest greatest handheld. Apples and oranges. Compare devices - don't compare "smartphones" and "GPSrs" - compare devices across device type, and take into account the model, age, technology, and price. Smartphone vs GPSr is a pointless, useless debate Nope, and I know first hand that that's not always true. Disclaimer: I am not a fanatical "iPhones are better than dedicated GPSrs!" - I am simply saying consider all devices rationally, and determine which is the best for your use, budget, and habits, whether it be a handheld or a smartphone (and please, dear God, if you use a smartphone for placing caches, make sure you have a recent device, and regardless of your device, everyone should always do what they can to ensure as accurate coordinates as possible! Simply using a GPSr is most definitely not a guarantee of accurate coordinates)

Soft-lead pencil - nice analogy! I might add, however, that you can never truly guarantee that posted coordinates are pin-point accuracy either. Unless you know the owner and they have a solid reputation for accurate coordinates, it really is always of better strategy to put the device away when nearing gz, and hone that geosense. More often than not, it'll be faster to look and search when reaching the vicinity than to find your most accurate reading and then search. You'll likely approach the coordinates and already have spotted where the cache is likely placed. I chuckle when caching with a group, and everyone is milling about comparing their GPSr readings... just look for the cache already! ;P