cx1

So lets see, on one side of the globe we have a cache that has an ignored SBA going back a good while because of the dangerous climb and lack of permission. People who have not visited the area try to post SBAs that are deleted. Yet here in the USA we have a webcam out of service and within a couple of hours of the SBA of someone who has not visited the cache, whammo the cache is archived. The system seems backwards to me.

Some people really like being 1st. Some people really don't care. Neither is 'right' or 'wrong' (given they they do not violate rules/guidelines to be 1st). Some people like having high numbers, some don't even bother keeping track of finds. Again neither way is 'right' or 'wrong'. As far a prizes, some cache owners reward the FTF with a prize. I have a nice little decal on my geo-cruiser that was a prize for FTF. I don't believe there is a 'prize' for finding the most caches though unless you count the experience of finding them as their own reward.

I think that is going to be your biggest stumbling block to this idea.

Curious as to how you arrive at the 10% figure. I know you stated most cachers that log accurately and not all cachers. But from personal experience I wonder how true that is. I feel I log my DNFs accurately yet I am running a <4% DNF rate(according to GSAK anyway).

I log a DNF when after I have gone to the given coordinates and attempted a search I was not able to find the cache. I do not consider it an attempt if both criteria were not met(being at the coordinates and performing a search). If I do not leave my car I personally do not consider it an attempt. If activity in the area prevents me from performing a search I do not consider it an attempt. Many people filter out caches that have recent DNF logs(without actually reading the log). Therefore I want to be accurate on my DNF logs. I went to the coordinates and attempted a search. To me anything less then that is disingenuous.

Because those items have a clear value. If you want/need PQs then you need to pay for the upgraded service. There is not an efficient 'free' way to accomplish the same task. PMO caches don't really seem to offer that distinct of a benefit. You can find and hide caches without it. They are often not of any higher quality then the non-premium caches. So it's value to a user is not as clear cut. So that leads to debate of why even have that particular item for paying members. Plus it is always right there in the open. Non-premiums don't see the PQs I get when I run them or how caches along a route makes my trip planning easier. But they do run into that little PMO icon on cache pages quite often. Which also contributes to it being a point of contention. I would wager if they eliminated PMO caches that the paying membership would not drop a significant amount. But if they dropped PQs I would anticipate a huge drop. I know they would stop getting my $30 a year. I look at the PMO caches benefit sort of like the free calendar I get from my Credit Union. I didn't pick them because of it and I wouldn't leave them if they dropped it.

excellent point +1

With hopefully a better system for verifying the question was correctly answered to receive credit for completing it (unlike the current photo challenges).

Because maybe he would like to put out the new better cache but in a previous thread was told archiving a newer cache is frowned upon until it has been out for 3 months?

Well I am not so sure about it being a great deal of effort. I rarely will look at the actual cache page because it is easier for me just to view the listings in GSAK. So unless it is a puzzle cache all the information I need is in GSAK. I just view the actual listing to see the background image, view the page source and check for EXIF data, things like that. And since I almost always use the upload field notes from my gps I don't need to view the cache page to log. So for me at least the easiest method that I have developed over trial and error just happens it seems to also be a method that avoids audit logs. Totally coincidental since I hadn't really given the audit logs much thought.

Would you (or anyone else for that matter) know under what circumstances these 'hits' are generated for the audit log? Does a PQ that includes your listing generate a 'hit'? Does viewing the listing via an app generate a 'hit"? Would using field notes for logging count as a 'hit' since it doesn't call up the full listing? If a user suddenly logged your cache prior to appearing in any audit logs would you find that log suspicious? Just curious about the audit log, not trying to make a comment on why anyone likes them or finds them useful.

Well do you take your boat, scuba gear and rock climbing equipment each time you go caching? Just because a cache requires special equipment there is no requirement that you must attempt to find that particular cache. GS opened the door to special technology when they allowed the use of chirps and the even earlier Wherigos. Of course this was when GS and Garmin got along. Now that Garmin started their own cache listing service new technology may have a tougher time getting in the door.

Well then shouldn't I as a premium member get the premium caches I am paying for? When what I am getting is a matchstick container on a street sign that is just like the 'free' one down the road it almost seems as if I am not getting any added value by paying to access these 'premium' caches. It is a local trend that seems to be growing. While I may agree with some of the reasons for making a cache a PMO, the one reason I just can't agree with is 'just because you can'. I also don't see how being a PMO would help against the cache being muggled. Muggles don't know about geocaching therefore they would not know what type of listing the cache is under. Muggles don't use the listing to find the cache, they see someone else finding it or they stumble across it on their own. Checking a box making the listing PMO would not change any of that.

With the advent of new technology things change. The log type for events is 'attended'. If your work has you participate in a meeting with colleagues in New York, London and Dallas and you use something like 'Go To Meeting' you have 'attended' the meeting haven't you? People also 'attend' on-line classes to earn degrees without ever entering a classroom. So it seem to me if the person 'attended' the event then they should log they 'attended'. It really seems to me that this is just more about the idea that events counting as finds more then about how the event was attended.

Oh I agree with what you are saying. It is just in some areas 'real' ammo cans are not often available. The only army surplus store within 50 miles (that i am currently aware of) finally got a shipment of 100 real ammo cans and had them for sale at a decent price of $15. They sold out in like two days and have yet to get another batch. At the last gun show I attended the cans were $25 which is a little steep for an item that is attractive to thieves. With shipping factored in most on-line sources seem about the same or higher then the gun show. So trying to find an alternative to the optimal cache container while trying to maintain the size aspect and not being cost prohibitive can be a daunting task. So with available being the key factor and ammo cans did not meet that criteria yet that size was desired, what container alternative would be acceptable to you?

You should be able to list the final but have it hidden except to you and the reviewers. Try the add waypoint option for the listing and choose final location. The reviewers would need to know the final location so they can assure proximity and other potential issues.

Good to know and thanks for providing the info. Someone actually gave me a metal ammo can to use as a geocache, I keep ammo in it instead They are good for that.

But do they seem wimpy for a geocache? Not comparing to a 'real' metal can but to other container types at that $3 price point?

That could be. Personally I have wanted to make one just because there are plenty of traditional caches around these parts and no hybrids. I think I am starting to get better logs on my Wherigo just because it is different more-so then because it is a great cache. So I am thinking something else different might have a similar result. It also might inspire more local folks to make them as well. I also enjoyed the one hybrid I've found before. The use of a nice handmade stamp adds a special something to the experience I thought compared to simply signing the log. I'm not chasing icons (though admittedly some folks do) because I will probably never put out a traditional, multi or event.

Could be, that does not pertain to what I quoted or what I wrote though but ok. I'm not saying he is a nice guy (I've never met him) or he has excellent people skills. It does seem rather 'trollish' when some people have condemned his videos yet it turns out they had not even watched them though. So I am not sure his assessment was incorrect in every instance. Below is not directed at Knowschad specifically. As far as Groundspeak stating he was 'wrong' by giving him the temporary ban. Didn't they actually apologize, end the ban early, give him a free premium membership gift and then officially back away from their stance on trying to control 3rd party sites? Sounds almost like Sven was shown to be 'right'.

That seems like a very good container for 3 bucks. Thanks for the information.

Unless the cache is listed as a mystery or maybe a multi then I also feel that the cache should be at the posted coordinates and not 30 feet away from a decoy.

That is how I understand the current practice to work. Posting a SBA log works the same as any other in the log type pull down menu for the user, but the site will also forward that particular type to a reviewer. People have asked for a way to submit an SBA anonymously and let the site choose which reviewer it is sent to, but I don't think the idea has gone far.

But some folks in the thread are clearly stating that Sven is 'wrong' to do what he does. Does not respect work both ways?

So then it most common to cross list on Atlas as opposed to letterboxing .org? It does seem that the atlas one is more active in my area at least but I had only heard of the other site before today I think. Comapring the two they don't seem to crosslist with each other around here anyway.