ibycus

The concern over other people's maintenance habits probably makes more sense in a more cache dense area, like some places in the states, if you're always going after abandoned caches, you might get pretty sick of it, and decide to try to do something about it. There are times when even though you didn't find the cache, you can *know* it isn't there. For example, I went after a cache by the Ogganites around Longville. The Ogganites haven't been around in a while, so any maintenance likely won't be done by them. Anyways, the cache was hidden behind a fence post (really the only place available to hide in the area). Behind the fence post in question, there was a rectangular dead patch of grass, the exact size of the described container. Now I am absolutely sure that cache is gone, even though I never *actually* found the container. Then there was Point of View III, hidden by Geo Wolf. He tends to come and go. I've had trouble getting in touch with him in the past. Point of View III was hidden under a trash can beside a busy street (cut grass all around, nothing else within the circle of error). I found the rocks that had been obscuring the cache, but no cache in sight. Now there I was pretty sure that I had looked in every possible place around that trash can for the cache, but I wasn't absolutely sure that the cache was gone. I sent an e-mail to the owner just in case, and I also contacted a previous finder to confirm that the cache was in fact gone. I then posted a SBA log as I didn't expect Geo Wolf to do the required maintenance (not that I'm trashing Geo Wolf, he does place some very nice caches, I just personally have a hard time getting a hold of him, maybe my spam filters block him, or vice-versa) I also occaisionally check on other people's caches that I liked when I'm in the area, just to give them an is/is not there message if it hasn't been found in a while.

As far as point one was made, I just made that comment in order to get it out of the way as soon as possible, before someone jumped down your throat for it. I really didn't honestly doubt your intentions, I just wanted to give you a chance to rectify the slip, as it opened a great big ol' hole. These forums can be pretty nasty at times (why I often stay away from them), but I bet its given you all something to talk about at the event . Maybe an e-mail to the poster of the log might have been appropriate, but it was probably also partially posted to make sure others didn't make a similar mistake. I think it probably seemed (possibly incorectly) to the approver that there was a concious attempt made to circumvent the rules, that the owner and the poster were possibly in cahouts (sp?) to get the info on the page itself. Anyways, I hope you all have lots of fun at your event. You've made me want to think about throwing something together myself (thinking about one where the details to the event are hidden in physical caches in the city)

Well, I guess what I'm saying is that even in the worst case scenario, the rule to me at least doesn't make sense. My problem with contacting a local, at least in this case is that a LARGE percentage of them aren't really all that local anyways. The camera is in waterloo ontario. Kitchener/Waterloo has about 180,000-190,000 people. That includes two good sized universities, one smaller one, and goodness knows how many colleges (off the top of my head I can think of at least 4). I think at the university, I met maybe 3 locals, and the rest were out of towners. Likely, whoever I contact will in the long run be no more able to maintain the cache than I am (although I think I can do a pretty darn good job from here). Anyways, I've contacted a local anyways, just to have a name on the record as a 'local contact', so I think this discussion is pretty much closed.

Agreed, we are lucky up here (I'm assuming you're the same Dog I know). Reading some of these forums is a little scary. Some people can be soooooo mean. I for one always assume the best of others. Like for example the guy who said that some other guy seemed to get delight out of posting SBA logs, may just have been trying to be an active and positive participant, by going out and seeing what was going on when the cache owner hasn't done it yet. They might be watching all caches they have found looking for prominant DNF logs, and go out and confirm that the cache is missing. Other than logging it as a SBA log as opposed to notifying the owner that the cache is in fact gone, sounds like the kind of guy I'd like to have in my area, and as this thread has shown, there is some definite confusion over exactly what a SBA log means. To me, the appropriate of an SBA log rests on wheather it red flags it for a reviewer. No point in putting extra work on them when the owner could just as easily make the decision.

Two things to start: 1. Charitable intent? Hmmmm I think we just slipped a little there. If that is the intent behind the cache I would say nope. That someone would be willing to take "Toys for Tots" donations while your there is another issue. Is the purpose of the cache to raise donations for "Toys for Tots", or is it primarily a just to get together? 2. I think the only way Groundspeak would have anything to do with it, is with the click through option hosted offsite. Post a link on the cache page (make it big bold and flashing if you want), that there are more details for the cache posted on another page. If someone doesn't click through, well they are probably too apathetic to have donated anything anyways. Now, as far as the logs go, I think Groundspeak has to have the final say there as well, even as far as archiving the cache if appropriate action isn't taken. I can just imagine, person a, restaurant owner sets up a cache, person b, employee of the restaurant logs the cache to say that there are $1.99 specials on tuesdays, and bang you've got a commercial venture going. Every week, new logs from person b about what is going on at the restaurant. It benefits the restaurant, so they aren't going to delete any logs, or ask that it be stopped. You can't go to that cache page without being bombarded with ads for the restaurant. Yeah, you can choose not to visit that cache, but you don't want to be bombarded with it in your pocket queries either, or taunting you on your list of closest not found caches. It is a slippery slope, and I think TPTB have to be very careful not to go down that road. (to be perfectly honest I probably wouldn't allow an offsite link to a page encouraging donations, but I'm just a real grinch . Its not that I don't agree that its a good cause, its just that were here to geocache, not to be asked for donations.

Anyone know how an SBA is treated by geocaching admin? I've always assumed it raises a big ol' red flag that brings a reviewer running (and I've always treated it as such). If this is the case, then it hardly seems necessary or even desirable to bring in a third party when the owner may be just as able to make the determination themselves. Posting an SBA to me carries the assumption that the owner won't take appropriate action on their own, and maybe needs an extra push by admin, or even by receiving an SBA log itself to take appropriate action. SBA to me is a last resort. I will only post it if I can't get a hold of the people who should be notified, and a third party needs to be brought in to sort things out. A simple not finding the cache is never enough for me to post a SBA, even if the cache is missing. If the cache is missing, and you KNOW it is missing, post a DNF and mention it. A responsible owner should follow up very quickly with a disabling, and what they are going to do about it very quickly.

Is this really a big deal? I mean if he'd set up one locally here that I didn't know about, I wouldn't mind. If I did know about it, I really should have placed it before some non local 'found' it. As long as his coordinates are relatively accurate, I really don't have a problem with it.

Dunno, but I know there are no signs on the campus that say that non students aren't allowed. Pretty sure it is a private building open to the public (similar to a shop or some such). I know generally around here, in grade school (1-12) there are signs posted at every entrance that say that visitors must report directly to the main office etc etc. Universities, to my knowledge have no such restriction. My guess the reason it isn't already done has a few sources 1. The popularity of caching in the area (with at least the two closest caches to the webcam, they are both owned by people who either haven't visited the site in a very long time, or no longer live in the city) 2. I *think* the page where people would typically look at the camera might only link to the camera at certain times of the year, hence most people don't know that the camera is always available, and those that do, haven't yet reported it. Basically, my point is this, I have no problem finding someone else to 'maintain' the cache, provided there is a legitimate reason to do so. What I am questioning is whether in this case there is a legitimate reason for the rules (we have a webcam that has been set up for several years with a specific purpose that can only logically be within a smallish area). I object strongly for rules for the sake of rules. Remember we are all out there to have fun. The purpose of the approval process (as far as I am aware anyways) is to a) Make sure caches are placed legally to some degree to ensure the quality of the caches places, and that they make logical sense where they are. c) Stop some numb-nuts from doing really stupid things like flooding the db with non existant caches. The no-caches in vacation is a good rule in general because it ensures that the placer is in a position to respond to issues that might arise with the cache (like hey it was trashed and needs removing, or is it really there, or is the environment suffereing) Well one can hardly trash a webcam cache (barring some serious criminal charges ) It is easy to respond to a DNF log, and the environment is hardly an issue. So, if I want to place a cache, for others in the area to enjoy, that is in a legal location, why shouldn't it be approved? The quality of the image is pretty obvious (just watch for a few minutes sometime during the day, near a half hour boundary when classes let out, and you'll certainly see someone walk by) If the camera goes missing etc, it can always be archived. If it gets moved, well that sucks, but either a) I can ask a local to grab new coordinates at that time, or it can be archived.

Well knowing the building, and the volume of people they get through there, they could hardly move the line, without gutting the whole building (very unlikely). I don't see as this is an issue that would come up very often in any case. I mean how many people have the lat/lons of webcams a 36 hour drive from their home? I'll probably just search for a local cacher, but I really don't see why I should...

Unless the camera changes significantly in purpose, I don't see this as an issue. The camera was set up to monitor the line outside the bookstore. The line has only one direction in which it can run. The foyer isn't that big that changes in camera positioning within the building would make a difference (Oh BTW there is a skylight in about centre frame of the shot that let me get a fix while in the building) The camera has been pointed in exactly the same place since it was set up (IIRC was in about 2000-2001). If the Camera moved to a different building, I would imagine it would be time to archive the cache (I suppose it might at that time be possible to contact a local cacher to grab some new coordinates).

Just for reference, the webcam can be seenhere (The original was at the bottom of a very long webpage).

Well I don't think the recognizability will really be an issue. The camera is about as idealy placed as possible to actually see people in it (its in the foyer outside the university bookstore, used to monitor the lineup). There are people walking by all the time during daylight hours (suppose I could always 'capture' one of them). As far as maintenance goes, I really don't see that there is anything that a close by individual can do that I can't. Really if the camera goes offline, its offline. I suppose one could contact the university and ask them if its going back up again, but I can still do that from here.

Just wondering what people here think about placing distant webcam caches. Out where I went to university, they have placed a webcam in one of the buildings (actually it was there when I was there, but I wasn't in to geocaching yet). Anyways, I have the lat/lons for the camera, and was thinking about posting it as a webcam cache. There are two restrictions that I can't comply with but neither of them seem to me to be a big deal. 1. I can't visit the camera to get a picture of me as a 'sample' (people will definitely be recognizable) 2. The cache is a long way away, sso might be construed in the same light as a 'vacation' cache. Maintenance shouldn't be a problem though... Thoughts?

Well, figured I might was well chime in. My personal view, is that unless you have compelling evidence to the contrary, a DNF is just that, a DNF. I have posted, I *think* two SBA logs. In one case I found a patch of dead grass at the given coordinates, the exact shape of the described cache container, further the owner had been absent for some time. Another one, I posted a DNF log, and tried to contact the owner. Got no reply from the owner, and I conferred with another cacher who had found the cache. I was looking in the right place, but no cache was there. I then posted a SBA. As far as a damaged cache goes, I'll post it as found, but include details as to the state of the cache. As pre-requisites to a SBA log I would say: 1. There has to be a VERY high degree of confidence that the cache is not at the posted coordinates. 2. The cache owner must for whatever reason be unreachable. If the cache is simply damaged, there is always the oportunity for someone to else to repair it. If the cache is simply missing, the owner may well choose to replace it. If I find a cache to be missing that I have found before, and the owner is available for maintenance, I just post a note to the log. Just my 2 cents.

Are you sure you're actually using COM1? If you are, try closing down all programs, perhaps boot in to safe and then send the waypoints. If it works in safe mode, then you know it is something else that has hijacked that port. Another option is to buy an external serial port (USB), and hook it up to that. I know that you can get one for about $30 Canadian here. Not a bad idea anyways, as I know my laptop didn't come with one (serial port that is), and you never know when it could come in handy.

I was thinking the ideal implementation would be to have this indicated as another field for each cache, all precalculated. A right click option really wouldn't do it for me anyways, as I'd really like to be able to sort on it, kinda figure out where the hotest cache spots are in an area. If I were implementing it in seperate program, I'd probably just take in a CSV file, of CODE,X,Y and output another CSV file. Not really hard to implement, only problem is that at least with the simplest implementation, the computational time grows with the square of the number of caches, so if you have a database of 10,000 caches, we're talking about a hundred million different distances that you have to calculate. Not something you want to do on the fly, but shouldn't be too slow on a reasonably modern machine. If I were you, implementing it within GSAK, I'd probably figure out how long it would take for a larger database, and how often you can recalculate it without driving the user nuts (i.e. would each time a new cache is imported be too much. If the time were prohibitive, I'd probably have it set up so that the user has to force a recalculate manually.) I might implement a command line interface if I do it myself, but I code mostly in VB, so probably not something anyone would want to include within their programs, and WAY too slow too. Might not be a bad time to brush up on my C though... That would be much faster. As far as the mapping goes, I don't blame you. That is a huge can'o worms. I've coded similar things myself, and they are way more work than they are generally worth, considering that there are plenty of programs already out there to do the self things in, and non-programmers don't generally apreciate the . Fun though if you can get in to it, but leaves you open to way more stupid little bugs.

I find this very interesting. It seems to me there are a couple of schools of thought on the issue. First, and what is seems like most people follow, is that whatever you take, generally speaking ends up back in a cache (with the exception of a few minor, oh I need one of those items). What is kept isn't generally related to actual value of the item, but rather on the utility of the item to the person at the time. Generally it seems like that at least the people here who trade try to leave something of equal or greater value in the cache. Of course this creates the problem that as it isn't actually the monetary value of the item that makes it a good item to get, so finding something of equal value can be difficult. At least for me, as I rarely actually trade, I do end up sometimes at a cache where there is something I want to take, and have to find something on me that I happen to have that I could trade for it (Canadian Tire Money and Stamps come to mind). Although these instances are rare for me, some might view it as trading down. Then there is the practice that seems to be followed by those who cache with kids. For them the treasure hunt part is very important. After all, that is why they go, to find treasure. The trade is very important to them. Presumably they tend to trade equally. Or at least equal in their own eyes. Now again this could present a problem, what is equal for me, isn't necessarily equal for you (especially if I'm just little). Also it is very hard to tell a kid that they can't have the item they want, because they don't have anything *quite* good enough to trade for it. This probably also leads to some degredation. Presumably for them though, McCaching isn't really an issue. I mean the toys were designed with the kids in mind right? Also are the people who see it as a kind of collection. You're collecting momentos of your caching experiences as you go. Be it with sig cards, or an actual trade item. This probably leads to no significant degredation, as you come prepared to trade, and what you're looking for probably doesn't fit with what other people are looking for. Of course the problem here though, is that McToys, are probably the last thing you want to see in a cache, same goes for the same old dollar store junk. You're looking for that unique item, that you can save, and remember where it came from, or even to take and remember when you grabbed it if you see it in another cache. The final group, not represented in the forums here are geo-gremlins. They travel with the specific purpose of making themselves a pain in the arse to other cachers. They likely don't sign any logs, or feel any remorse over trading a candy wrapper for a geocoin (probably ends up in the trash anyways). These people are especially destructive though, as one of them in an area can leave a sour taste for the whole community. They think they are being sneaky and clever. The only other thing I can think of that might make things a little worse in general are the elements. I remember reading a post somewhere about finding a half eaten sucker stuffed back in the wrapper in a cache. Makes me wonder, was it actually a half eaten sucker, or was it a half disolved sucker? I'd prefer to think of it as disolved, but who knows. The other things that may happen, is items get wet, and are removed without logging them. One of my caches recently happend to be underwater (wasn't meant to be []), the log was fine, but I good number of the trade items were destroyed, wasn't expecting it to be underwater, so I didn't have anything with me to restock, and just thinking about it now, I'm not sure if I actually logged that I'd done anything to it. Now if this wasn't my cache, and I came across it, I imagine I might guess that someone had plundered it. That about sums it up for me. Unless there is a particular need for me to, I don't think I'll post to this thread again. I've gotten what I wanted out of it. I'll keep reading it of course (I did start it after all) and I thank you all for your input. I personally think that there is very little new information to add, other than perhaps with the travel bug issue. Perhaps it would be worth summarizing this in kind of an FAQ, as it seems that every time I've been in to the forums someone one or other is talking about it, but no one ever seems to come to any conclusions or resolutions about it, rather they tend to get very upset about the ignorant clods out there, and we all know where that road leads. Thanx again.

One thing that for me would be particularly useful, and kind of along the same lines would be a number of caches (preferably unfound) within n kilometers field for each cache. That way you could tell how dense caches are within an area without actually having to plot the caches, and worrying about all the garbage that comes along with that. (Zoom in zoom out, pan, keeping track of what to plot, front back, graphics methods etc.) What do you (Clyde) feel about this? Does it make it on to the todo list? I'd really like it, I know that much. Might code something like it myself once that %UTM flag comes along. If I do get around to it and there is interest, I'll make it public domain.

Was reading in another thread about concern over cache degredation. Would have posted there, but that seems to have degenerated in to a shouting match, and I'd rather not take part. One person though did bring up a good point that was largely ignored. I was just wondering how many of you keep items that you take from caches? I know there are maybe one or two items that I've kept, not because they were of any particular value, or anything but more because I had a specific use for them at the time (I'm thinking of some post-it flags that I took once), or in one case, I just haven't gotten around to returning it to a cache (funky little halloween bear), but generally speaking, anything I take from a cache eventually goes back in another cache somewhere else. To be honest I generally don't take anything, or leave anything, but when I do, I generally don't trade for keeps. I am curious if this is the general practice or if it is just something that I do, or if it is only practiced in certain areas or what. When I set up a new cache, generally I go out to a dollar store, and pick up some things that I would like to find in a cache, and might bring for a ride somewhere if I were to find them, or might have an immediate need for. Generally I put about $10 canadian in to one of my caches (although I did have a recent cache (GCKRF2) filled with almost nothing but plastic bags, but that had a specific purpose). So I guess my point in a roundabout way is, if other people generally speaking follow the same kind of practices, if one cache degrades, won't it generally help out another cache? I know there is nothing i like more than seeing one of my old trade items show up in another cache, it's kinda neat. More than anything for me, as far as trading goes, it all depends on what the next trade is. Like for example, if you trade a golf tee for a geocoin, you'd better not take anything better than a golf tee when you place the geocoin somewhere else. This kind of thing is of course much harder to see, but really does have a major impact on how I would view the situation. Also of issue, is if things should be traded for travel bugs/geocoins at all. Personally, if I see one of these items in a cache, I take it, bearing in mind that the owner of the bug/coin would want to see it move on as quickly as possible, but if at all possible, I leave something, no matter how small in its place. This again, overall increases the number of items up for trade. When I replace the bug/coin I tend to take nothing for it (except perhaps another bug). What do other people do?

I'm sure there is a way to do this, but I was wondering if there was a way to get GSAK to spit out a list of UTMs, along with cache code, or some such thing. I'm looking at trying to get an idea of cache density in a given area, to help me decide where I should go out next. This of course requires the calculation of distances between points, which is much easier to do with XYs over lat-lons. I might then weight this funciton based on distance from my home coordinates. To try to figure out an optimum place to go caching.

But which scenario is more common? I really don't know to be honest, but I would have thought that if you are planning on going after a particular cache, you would likely already have *some* idea of what city it's near. The default zoom, even though I know Calgary relatively well tells me nothing about where abouts in calgary it actually is. There just aren't enough landmarks on the map for me... I guess If you're in the middle of nowheresville, it might give a better idea... But the question remains, what is more common? somewhere near a city, or somewhere in the middle of nowhere? I really have no clue, as I say I really am new to the game. Maybe an option to let the cache owner decide on an appropiate zoom level?

It occured to me that the links to the mapquest site could be made much more useful, if &zoom=7&size=big were added to the end of the auto-generated URL. This would auto-zoom the maps to a reasonable level (so one can actually get some idea of the context of the waypoint without manually zooming in) size=big just makes the map a little bigger. As an example, This is the current way vs what I am proposing What do people think? I personally can't see any disadvantage to it, although I am somewhat of a newbie to the sport, so maybe I am missing something.