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4 Walls

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Everything posted by 4 Walls

  1. Here is an idea make the cache in or near the capital city of each state. It could be a virtual and some information could be gained from a sign etc. The hard part would be do they have to be done in a specific order? Or can they be done randomly? Maybe this has already been addressed and I missed it. In order to get credit for any state you log it and then email the "owner/keeper" of the cache to verify the find. Any one who posts without getting verification would have the claim removed. Also all of the caches would have to be easily accessible 24/7 by anyone, including mobility challenged persons. Additionally, steps would have to be taken to prevent internet searches, a photo at the sight would help alleviate this situation. Getting 50 in 50 states would be challenging enough without having to solve a puzzle or anything. The only reason I would require any cache to be done in a specific sequence would be the last cache. I would make that in DC. The information would be held in secret by a committee of people who would give the info for the final cache only after the 50 states were verified. Dan Let me know if you need someone for Colorado. As long as the caches are truly on public property and are available 24/7, to handicapped cachers and are virtual so there is no problem with trespass I would be happy to participate
  2. Please up date the list...............
  3. I got mine today also. It is a very nice coin. I did not think the people in Colorado were that talented!
  4. I would like to suggest my own event. I call it 'THE SIX DEGREES OF GEOCACHING EVENT' If you are familiar with the concept of Six Degrees of Separation ( explanation is found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_degrees_of_separation ) you will easily understand this event! The most beautiful thing about this event is all geocachers will be able to log thousands of caches in only 1 hour. Buy suing this concept you can log the finds of anyone in the world that finds a cache in this one hour time frame. I suggest the time take place at 12 noon GMT on the Summer Solstice. Imagine logging a cache in every country in the world! Puzzle caches, micro, multi, virtual, mystery all type of events! Imagine the bragging at the next CITO event.........."I have the world record and have 439,571 caches to date plus every geocoin and my little travel bug 'I Feel Used' has 1.3 million miles and the only cache I have ever placed has been found by 273,950 differnt cachers" Any one else up for this record breaking attempt?
  5. I am personally in favor of stats. My family and I have been caching for just over 2 years. In that time we have found 95 and cached in 6 different states. The stats are important to us as personal achievements. We are not in competition with other people to get more stats. The icons are important to us also since they are a visible reminder of different coins we have found (which are very few) and the various bugs and types of caches we have found also. For some folks its all about I have more numbers and icons than you, they have no real desire to really enjoy the family activity it entails. I have been told by another cacher that she "would help me since I was new, and you are not taken seriously as a cacher until you have at least 50!" Little did she know that she has only been caching 1/5 as long as I and that I have a life that prevents me from sitting all day waiting for new cache listing to pop up on my Blackberry or phone. Then at 11pm at night runout with my maglight to search for the cache in an attempt to be FTF. Yep, its a true story.......... Keep the stats is what I say, let the numbers people run around at events and pound their chests and tell us what wonderful cachers they are because they have 1000+. My family and I enjoy averaging a cache a week and spending the time with my family.............. Dan PS, I really don't like the so called record run and have expressed my opinion in other threads, they are only hurting themselves by claiming to have earned a record by such questionable standards.
  6. I think this cache should only be logged by individuals that actually find it Iraq. The difficulty for it should be raised to a 5 since you either need to be a member of the military stationed in Iraq or a civilian contractor for the military in Iraq. "Joe Average Cacher" has not earned logging this cache. If you wish to show your support for the military write letters, your congressman etc. Maybe even post a note but do not log the cache. I say this as a father of son in the army and an uncle of a nephew who interrupted his education to serve 18 months active duty in Iraq. So to answer your question, no I don't think you are overboard.
  7. Some other points, they stated they used one van how would they be able to coordinate dropping some people off here and there and picking them back up and moving them to new locations. I have run that up the flag pole and it don't wave. Additionally, who witnessed this record? Were there observers, people who can verify that the claimed caches were actually found by the people claiming to find them? How many of these caches were actually trash near the location but had a DRR signed them and a quick claim of a cache found? Unless it marked on the exterior and many caches are not how do you know it was actually the cache if you did not open it? Again the Flag comes out. There appears to be no official method for sanctioning or recognizing a number of found caches in a single 24 hour period. You made up your own rules, I can do that. I think that I will have a record attempt of my own, It will be the most caches found in 15 seconds.............I will have not witnesses, no official rules nothing to validate my record. The planning will be extensive it will take at least 2 times as long as the hunt. I will station myself a self respecting 15 feet from the location of the first cache I hope to find and then start the timer when and only when I have the cache in sight. If you are really planning on selling a coin to commemorate this dubious claim, good luck. It is one I will not buy. If you really want a record for something than it needs to be documented and witnessed by reliable persons to establish the validity and from what I have read there is no proof that all 312 were found and signed in the time frame mentioned.
  8. Lets put it mildly, I don't believe it. for the total of 356 caches searched for including the 44 DNF. An average time of 4.04 minutes would be needed. Now factor in the fact they said they traveled 312 Miles. Even if they were on a highway traveling an average speed of 60 mph (10-15 mph less than the speed limit on an interstate hiway) that would eliminate 5.2 hours (5 hours and 12 minutes) from the day. Now figure that an average speed was probably closer to 30 miles an hour and that time doubles. But lets work with the 60 mph number. Subtract the 5 hours and 12 minutes from 24 hours (1440-312) that leaves 1128 minutes for caching. With the 312 claimed as found and adding the 40 claimed DNF for 356 total searched. They spent according to their claims an average of 3.16 minutes per cache searching. I have not factored in restroom breaks and we know there had to be some even if someone made a stop in the bushes while the others searched it would have slowed things down. How much time was spent at red lights? How close could they have possibly parked to all of the caches. Add in searching for caches after dark Even if you have a 500,000 candle power light the shadows make it even more difficult to search. Basically I am throwing the bullcrap flag on this one. Unless these folks are Santa Claus it could not be done in a 24 hour period, regardless of preplanning. Come clean, you will feel better if you do. Dan
  9. I am not real keen on this idea. I know some folks are. It is a crying shame that when real coins are released in the wild they are "captured' and not rereleased. (I use the term "captured" because I am one of those terrible folks that think legal ownership rights are forfeited when released, but that is the topic of another thread and I am not trying to hijack this one.) Unfortunately some folks don't have the same spirit for helping a coin along that other folks do. However if you feel that you wish to keep your original and put out a picture of it please make sure that it is clearly labeled as a "Copy", "Facsimile" or "Duplicate". My goal to to find and log real coins only and I have go out of my way to find real coins and either "discover" them or retrieve and move along. Maybe Geocaching.com can address the issue of copies and make it easier to identify on pocket queries and icons to save time when searching for coins on line. Though I doubt if they will they are concerned about perception and do not want to give any perception that is less than flattering and potentially affect their abililty to charge a premium price for tracking numbers.
  10. Well put Snoogums. You realistically understand the reality of Travel Bug and GeoCoin ownership when they are released. Wish more people understood that. Unfortunately there is an urealistic espectation by many folks that once they release (abandon) any trackable into a cache or event they have voluntarily given up ownership whether they wish to believe so or not. Dan
  11. As for the legality of selling a Geocoin on Ebay. Consider this, if once the item was traded, sold, placed in a cache etc the person who authorized the manufacture continued to retain all rights including ownership to the coin then EBay would not allow the sale of the coin. EBay is a huge company and they have loads of legal eagles that advise them on the legality of such things. Since they continue to allow the sales of Geocoins I think it is safe to think they have researched the legalities associated and determined the possessor of the coin has a legal right to sell it. I also think that if a person can provide documentation that demonstrates a contract exists between the person who authorized production (the original owner of the coin) and the person selling the item on EBay then they would probably revoke the listing. I do not think Ebay would accept as a proper, legally binding documentation a notice on a web page stating the coin is not for sale or a stamp on the coin stating not for sale. I think they would require a direct link in the form a document between the individuals to establish an enforceable contract. EBay makes way too much money to get involved in things they know are illegal. They don't need the small amount of money (in the vast scheme of EBay) that is earned by the sale of Geocoins. Dan PS If you don't want your coins sold on EBay then you should keep them to yourself or only trade or sell to individuals that you know and trust. But there is no guarantee that they still won't end up on EBay.
  12. I view it that if I have given something of value for a coin, (ie traded or purchased outright) then I expect to receive all rights to the coin, including adoption and tracking capability. If I am not being granted all rights then I should be advised upfront so I can make the decision of whether or not I wish to trade for or buy the coin. Any person who does not advise you upfront of the status of the coin and that it has restrictions for the new owner is not ethical. This is not the kind of person I would deal with in the future and I would advise other person of this situation. Dan
  13. Even though many interesting concepts have been put forward in the last couple of days, I indicated that I felt we were getting no where with this thread. I did not intend plan to post any more. But a question is raised that deserves an answer. I put forward the question due to the several posts referring to the ownership of coins being sold on ebay etc. I am a very curious person and was intrigued the the question and of course the answer. I am not doing anything that needs justification. I am a new collector of coins and recently ordered my first 2 coins. (Ellis Island and Yellowstone National Park) I try to be well informed and knowledgable about things in I am involved in. One concept I will comment on was one on copyright and the right of a person to collect $4995 dollars if you sold "their" $5 coin for $5000. That argument is very weak. By that standard if I had a collectable Coca-Cola sign and sold it for $10,000 I would have to pay Coke several thousands of dollars........... I bet Coke would like that idea, or Disney or..................you get the picture. Ok off my soap box......... Dan
  14. Your question is not a Red Herring, the argument is. (or at least I am suggesting that the argument of legality is -- so please take no offense -- I am taking the argument for legal ownership as a justification for actions which most reasonable people would regard as ethically questionable). As for an analogy. Suppose you are driving and someone walks into a crosswalk which clearly states "do not walk". You are able to stop, but have the right of way and hence continue and hit the person with your vehicle. You can claim a legal right, but can you really morally claim to be "right"? Let's say you find someones wedding ring engraved with their name, you keep it. Legal? -- yes. Moral?- no. This then brings me back to why I suggest the legal question is a bit of a Red Herring. What is the objective of the question? Is it to determine "correctness" of the an action or just whether the action is allowable within the framework of the law? Legally I think you own the coin if you possess it. However, do not confuse the affirmative to this question as an afirmation of your ethics should you actually keep it. (hence the whole Red Herring thing). ...oh, and should you take offense or otherwise see this as a personal attack -- don't. I am not suggesting you are unethical at all! (unless you are taking TB's and keeping them) I do not feel you are attacking me and take no offense from your response. Ethics and Legal are very often 2 separate things. Like you said I may do something that is technically legal but from a moral/legal stand point it is wrong. My whole question was intended to try to clarify legal ownership of GeoCoin once it is released. My position on the matter is once it is released for anyone who may deliberately or unintentionally come into possesion of it now becomes the legal owner and is free to do with it as they see fit. The original owner or iterim owners have given up the right to control its destiny once released. The crux of the argument is you have placed an object deliberately in a public place, where anyone regardless of affiliation with Geocaching may find this object. You do not have a reasonable expection that it will ever be returned to you since you do not know who if anyone will find it and what their motivations are. You have in fact abandoned it, and by abandoning it given up any say in its future status. If you directly gift a coin to an individual or group, you have the right to specify to those persons that it may be used only a specific manner for them to retain ownership. But unless it is agreed those conditions carry forward to anyone they may gift it to or their heirs (ie making a temporary loan to be returned for certain reasons or time frame, much like art is loaned to museums) then subsequent giftees very likely may not be bound by your agreement. The ownership argument being made because someone owns a copyright is off base. The copyright covers the design of the article, not the article its self. The article may still be sold by someone other than the copyright holder. If this argument were valid than it would be illegal to sell most things at a garage sale because of copyright infringement. Copyright applies to who may or may not reproduce the item. Selling a coin is not an infringement of copyright. Secondly most copyrights for geocoins are retained by the manufacturer. The reason they do this is to keep people from taking a design they have made molds and dies for and then having another manufacturer produce the finished product those reducing their profit. Analogies about entering private property and taking tools, is pure theft and not a practical comparison to finding a can of stuff in a park, the woods or other place that has reasonably free run of the public. If I have a can of stuff in my yard that I own, rent, lease or otherwise legally control, and someone came onto that property without my permission and removed things then it would be theft as they had no legal right to be there. I think I am finished, unless someone can and will chime in who actually has a legal background especially in property law the question is getting no where and clarification will not occur. Thanks everyone for their opinions, whether I agree with your opinion or not it was a very interesting thread! Dan
  15. I like virtuals, bring them back! Eliminate the Mickey d's kind of categories from Waymarking and I might enjoy it more and participate in it. But as long as it is that cheesy, I'm not interested. don't say that I can choose to ignore the cheesy categories or categories I don't think belong, I did that with virtual and locationless caches. The premise of Waymarking seems lacking in substance......... Dan
  16. I went to a Geocaching event in Suburban Denver a couple of months ago. One of the organizers of the event was encouraging everyone present to hide at least one cache a month this year! Certainly a noble cause! Some made mention of private vs public land and she stated we should hide caches wherever we could because there really was no real private land left in the world. She made a reference to government land being in her opinion private since it was owned by the government. I just thought this is so sad that she would make a silly statement like that infront of a group of 30 cachers. Becareful about listening to other people who might say its ok to place a cache in a given place, it may not be accurate, do your own homework. Needless to say despite what she said, it always best to get permission. I have placed one and the greenbelts (multi) it is placed in have no policy one way or another concerning geocaching per the parks district. so it is not necessary to get permission. Dan
  17. First my question is not a "Red Herring" but a legitimate question. Second, it is highly unlikely that any claims of ownership to a coin placed in circulation through a cache would be enforceable. A coin gifted or traded or sold to an individual may have specific conditions attached to it such non-saleability. This would have to be agreed to prior to transfer taking place. To place something in a box in a public venue and expecting to retain ownership rights that are enforceable is not practical. Ideally it would be a wonder world if everyone would just pass coins on after logging them. But that is not the case. Any lawyers out there? Dan
  18. I don't really have a problem with looging bug or coin numbers especially if I find something interesting. It helps me to remember something that I saw but was unable to move on for some reason. For example I was at a picnic and someone brought a garden gnome that came with its own 5 gallon bucket to carry it in. Now its not every day you see a TB that big it is unusual. I took the number so I could log it, and knew it was impracticale for me move the TB along. Unfortunately I lost the number before I could log it. The problem I have is hypocrisy that some folks show. I was at an event in Denver and saw a few cool TB's, I was going to move one down the road but wanted to log a couple of others for posterity. A couple of other people at the event felt what I was doing was wrong and sent yet another person to explain to me that I was "not playing the game right". Ok fine I thought, no problem. But then a few weeks later what do I see? Alog by the person who complained about how I was playing the game, logging a GeoCoin in and out! Guess there is a double standard for some folks. Ok that s my rant. Play the game how you like, log if you want, log if you don't. If you are interested in numbers than cool, if not then cool. If its a way to spend time with your family or get exercise than cooler yet! Do it how you want to just have fun. Dan
  19. If they got involved in every dispute, it would be ridiculous. Can you imagine the number of emails saying that "so-and-so picked up my coin and hasn't dropped it in two weeks; they stole it and I want to pursue action....". I doubt if they would get involved either, imagine if they came back and said, "even though you might be listed on the sheet as 'owner' once you leave the trackable in a cache and someone else retrieves it you cease to have any legal claim to it" That would be like shooting themselves in the foot. So I doubt if they will take any position on it especially since controversy like this is good for business, I bet the more we talk about it the more the prices for certain coins will go up and the more people who will snag coins from caches and not report them but keep them. Dan
  20. True I was not referring to morals when I post the original question. Legal and moral are not congruent. I had read on many other posts that certain people considered selling a geocoin online as theft unless they were the "owner". I use quotations because I am referring to the person who authorized and paid for the production of the coins. It is not a statement of fact that I believe they retain ownership indefinitely once they are released. I would be curious to see what kind of a response the Groundspeak and Geocaching.com legal staff have to say on this matter. They certainly should have a clear cut opinion since they actively promote the game/sport/hobby or whatever you wish to call it of geocaching. They also have specific requirements for developement of tackables including coins and TB's. So Groundspeak and Geocaching.com what is your legal opinion? Dan
  21. Vey interesting replies, I see there is a sharp division on this topic. Are there any formally legally educated persons out there who could chime in with a more "legal" opinion? While, I find some of the arguements interesting it still seems to my non-legally educated mind that you give up rights to an item once it is released. Dan
  22. I counted 17 but when I checked the logs 13 of them were reported by recent finders of no coin in the cache............bummer A lot of them disappear, so mysterious............ Dan
  23. Does a person maintain ownership and rights of ownership to a trackable once it is placed in a cache or given to another person? I have been reading the various threads. what intrigues me are the ones where people are getting all worked up by people selling GeoCoins they have found on Ebay, caches etc. In particular coins that were made by Moun10bike. I am afraid I do not understand what the uproar is about. I understand that Moun10bike prefers that these coins not be sold and why. What I do not understand are the statements that Moun10bike is the owner of these coins. Let me explain the basis of my confusion. Once a person releases a geocoin or travelbug into a cache or to another person he is relinquishing not only possession but ownership to another person. There is no reasonable expectation that any trackable will be returned to the so called "owner". If a person wishes to retain ownership of a trackable then it should not placed in a cache or given it to another person. Furthermore, caches are generally placed on public property, which has little, if any restrictions on access by non-geocachers. Any,one may find the cache whether they participate in geochaching or not. Since a cache is left in a public place where it may be intentionally or unintentionally found by non-cachers ownership rights to any portion of the cache is limited at best. In essence, it appears to me that once an item is left as part of a cache it has been abandoned and rights of ownership do not apply. I feel someone may make an argument that parking a car is no different than leaving a coin in a cache. But it is not there is a reasonable expectation that your car will be there when you return for it and it is not being left for another person, most likely unknown to you to take without an expectation of return. Additionally, when a coin is transferred physically from Bob to Ed (sample names). Unless there is an agreement (a contract basically) between Bob and Ed, Ed is free to do what he wishes with the coin. I expect some folks might argue that such an agreement would exist between cachers and is implied and perpetuated indefinitley. I think such a contract would be very unenforcable especially since there is no guarantee of knowledge of such an agreement and transporting trackables across state lines would open another can of worms due to the differences in state laws and no likely laws that I know of from a federal stand point that would apply to Geo-Coins. Whew! that was long-winded...........Basically, I don't think the coins listed for sale in various places belong to the original owner any more and unless they have literally been taken surreptiously from a home, someone's person or vehicle they do not qualify as stolen property. Just because we use the term "owner" when referring to a person who released a trackable does not give there rights of ownership once it is released. So, legal eagles, what do you think? Am I off base? Dan
  24. Hi I am brand new to collecting Geocoins and ordered my first 2 the other day. (Yellow Stone and Ellis Island standard). My question is should I activate them if I decide to sell or trade them in the future how does that affect the value? Thanks Dan
  25. Membership pending as Afishhawk! every 3-4 month would be great!
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