4 Walls

Seriously? Nudity is not the issue here, that's a personal choice and there are plenty of areas where public nudity is perfectly family friendly, but you don't go flaunting certain areas (as the coin has). I wouldn't even care about it if it was non trackable and personal, the issue for me is that it was approved by the Org. who says this is all supposed to be family friendly. Looks like it's the 'first' and 'cherry' icon that is the issue. It's a non issue. It's like watching Loony Tunes. When you are old enough to "get it" then you do. Otherwise you don't. There are a lot of things in the world like that. Unless I missed something kids may think the icon is cute but when they are old enough to ask about first and cherry and tie it together, they are probably old enough to learn about it. For some reason the phrase "You never forget your first St. Pauli Girl" keeps popping up. Must have been a joke about that...

Lots of reasons, a couple are........... 1. its the hunt and finding a benchmark that was placed on mountain top 80 years ago is cool 2. geocaching has become humdrum and I am tired of illegally placed caches and micros and people who are only concerned about how many coins they can collect and not pass on.

One of the best responses I have seen. I wish more people would understand what you are saying. I don't understand how people can believe they don't need permission to place a cache in a parking lot and that they think because it is a public place that it is not private property. Dan

Interesting, considering they'll let people park all sorts of trailers, motor homes, etc. overnight. Admittedly, I've neither done that myself, nor explicitcly ask if I would have permission to do so. As for the RV's and 5th wheels camping on Walmart lots it is not universal. Some stores do not allow overnight parking for various reasons, whether it be local regulation, smaller sized parking lots, or regional/local decisions to not allow overnight parking. The same applies for geocaching, store managers, district managers etc have the freedom to decide if this is an activity that best suits the interests of the individual stores. So manager Bob at store "A" may say yes to geocaching, Manager Sue at store "B" 4 miles away might say no. Dan

Interesting you use the trashcan example since by law in most locations your trash is public domain. . Keeping the statement about looking trashcans in context, tells me it was not necessarily placed on the curb for collection. It may be on side of the house or garage. If it has not been placed out for collection then you or anyone else has no right to go through it. without a search warrant. If this was not the context intended by the original poster let me know. Dan

Per the guidelines it says.......... It seems that seldomly does a listing show a statement indicating permission. Unless the listing shows Adequate permission was granted on any private property it is suspect and in my opinion should not be listed and if listed should not be sought by ethical cachers. Dan

How hard is it to understand that if you are on private property without permission that most of the time you are trespassing? Yes, I know there are exceptions, parking lots, possibly walking up a sidewalk to ring a door bell etc. So don't worry about throwing all those things out as examples of times being able to enter private property, we all understand that. In many states landowners/lessees/managers do not need to post signs, it is a matter of state law. Check your local laws. In these states you are generally ok if you are in a road right-of-way. Once you leave the right-of-way you are trespassing. Right-of-ways for utilities are not generally fairgame for entry. They are intended for the utilities to lay the utilities and have access to them. Yes there may be exceptions to these in different states. If you know of specific laws or exceptions to a state let us know. I also don't understand why someone would see a sign that says no trespassing and assume it was not legitimate and trespass. That defense sure won't hold up in court. Verify and get permission before you trespass! Dan

But this seems widely disregarded. Dan Your job is to decide to seek the cache or walk away. I've walked a way, I've also driven miles on back roads then found a piece of paper face down in the mud "if you can read this you have been trespessing for a long ways. Threats followed on the paper, I turned back. Much later I found the right access and it was easy. (Not true the Army Corps blocked cars from that access and we had to hike but that's another thing). Some of the Off limits are subject to intrepretation, others you can't know until after you placed the cache. When I spoke with the BLM we specificaly went over how they deal with Archaeological sites. Your job is to know before you place a cache and it is the seekers responsibility to know before they look. Its a two-way street. It is irresponsible to place caches and then expect to find out after the fact if it was a legitimate placement or not. Just because there is no sign does not mean you are not trespassing. This type of irresponsible cache placement will cause restriction after restriction to be placed on caching and will ultimately help lead to the end of geocaching and all that will be left will be virtuals......... Dan

Ok, I am not very familiar with that either. But I take it to mean an area that the public can enter or access without paying a trespass fee, admission, have to obtain permission to enter etc is public accomodation. Thereby making a parking lot at the mall public accomodation. Is that correct? If it is you still have areas a parking lot in which public accomodation do not apply. These areas may be sprinkler control boxes for the medians, the shrouds on lightposts, access panels on signs and lights etc. Additionally would it not be necessary to obtain permission to attach anything to any of these things. Public accomodation does not give carte blanche. Dan

I stole it from letterboxing. But as far as I know GC.com merely addresses the adequate permission angle which covers all land types and ownership. Technicaly you can get permission to place caches in areas that don't accomodate the public or which are not good locations for a cache regardless. Public accomodation, suitability, and adequate permission work hand in hand. If what you say is true, then GC.com is a farce. Placing a cache somewhere just because you think you can is idiotic in the extreme. This thread is similar but rather than ask multiple questions in a thread I thought I would break them apart. Also, I would say the guidelines of GC.com are very carefully written. The intent that they are written for I will let you decide. Dan

I think everyone who has answered to this point shares pretty much the same opinion as me. Permmission is required for all private property. But I have seen time and time again caches being placed on private property and I have been unable to determine if permission has been granted. Also as stated on the http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx#offlimit page But this seems widely disregarded. Dan

What is the difference? I have heard from various local cachers that they consider the parking lot at a mall public property. I contend it is private property, with public access. I also believe since it is private property that permission is required to place a cache. What do you think? Dan

There seems to be a wide variety of opinions on what kind of locations are ok to place caches in/on. Tell us what locations do feel are off limit without express permission of a person having the authority to give permission. Don't forget to explain your reasons........... Dan

My final words on this topic include a quote from an email from a person who hid a cache. I questioned whether or not permission was received for some caches and this is the response I got. Whether or not a person has received permission to hide a cache is the business of poetential seekers. It is not a matter just between the hider and the reviewer. Anyone who does not take steps to reasonably assure you that appropriate permission has been received in my opinion probably does not have permission. So my advice to anyone seeking caches on private property, and malls, parking lots etc are private property is be very careful. Even with assurances from the "owner" of the cache unless they provide specific and verifiable information concerning the cache you may unwittingly be searching for an inappropriately based or even illegally placed cache. If you are stopped for trespassing or worse while caching you must demonstrate that you "reasonably had cause to believe" your actions were appropriate. Its a jungle out there, watch your back. Dan

We are closer than you think, or maybe not. I'd say maybe we agree more on the issue and less on the solution or the need for a solution. Some clarification: You are right. Each person seeking a cache has to assess the cache. There are cachers who I trust to place micro's some I trust to tresspass, some I know seek permission and so on. It modifies how I approach their caches. If I'm not comfortable I'm not going to seek. We agree there though perhaps we would disagree on what level of comfort we have seeking. Fair enough. As for not having time for inquires questioning my judgment in placing, I don't. I don't need or want every cache seeker emailing me their opinion of my hide and how it doesn't fit their view of the world. However if they email me and say "there is a trail forming to your cache" then I have something concrete. Perhaps I used a game trail or perhaps I set it off trail but hoped it was far enough out of town so that a social trail would not form. Now I have information that I can use. If you are approached by a land owner and they say "get the hell off my land" that's also good information. "I think your cache is on private property" isn't since I know where I put the cache. It's entirly possible that I put it on a piece of land that farmer Brown thinks he owns but which I know is public. You would not be able to tell by looking. Reporting facts and not speculation helps me as an owner assess the cache and the need to leave it alone, move it, archive it, or maybe even go talk to Farmer Brown and show him caching. Thanks for the clarification, I think you are right we are closer in opinion than I originally thought. Dan

Have you ever hidden a cache? Do you remember clicking the two boxes next to these statements? Yes. I have read and understand the guidelines for listing a cache. Yes. I have read and agree to the terms of use agreement. By clicking those boxes, you're telling the reviewer, and the rest of the geocommunity, that "adequate" permission has been obtained. We'll save for another thread, what constitutes "adequate". There is no law requiring that you hunt for every cache out there. If you're squeamish about a particular hide, hit the "Delete" button. No need to call the geocops. Yes, I have hidden caches. And for the people who stop, read, understand the terms of use and guidelines for listing a cache and follow them before checkingthe boxes I apologize.

Dan, any permission I obtain is between me and the land onwer. I do not owe you as a seeker any explanation for my cache as I am the one responsible. If you as a seeker are not comfortable stay a way and call it good. I do not list my permission status though I would gladly defend any cache I have placed with and without explicit permission. A vague doubt you have about any one cache is not much to work with and any one with any common cents should apply it and ask you for more than a vague doubt before they act. As for having no qualms stating my permission status, you are right. I don't. But I also don't have the interest, time or inclination to answer queries from every Tom Dick and Harry either about the permission status of my caches. My placements are my business, your seekings are your business. Live within your comfort level. Email the owner if the cache is proving to be an issue and work it out directly. You will know when it's time to contact them. The land owner will be saying "what the hell are you doing" or there will be a ring of destruction around the cache that even with permission the land owner's not going to like. I will agree with part of your statement and disagree with part. I feel you do owe any potential cacher or seeker as you put it a simple statement in your description that you obtained permission from the owner/manager/lessee etc for placement of the cache. Then it is up to the individual to decide if he wants to trust that statement or not. If you give more information concerning the permission than it is more likely a seeker will look for the cache. Once you place a cache and request approval and it is approved it becomes the business of all geocachers, not just you. If you want it to be your business than don't post it. I agree that anyone who has a problem or concern with any cache has the option to stop and leave. That is my stance from now on. Something I don't understand is you tell me to email the owner of a cache and work things out, but then you tell me, " But I also don't have the interest, time or inclination to answer queries from every Tom Dick and Harry either about the permission status of my caches." Which way do you want it? You tell me that I should take a certain action with a cache "owner" but then basically tell us you don't care! Very Interesting attitude there! So like I said I both agree and disagree with you. But I guess I disagree more than I agree.

Thanks for the heads up! I am finding myself migrating more and more to benchmarking and less to geocaching. Eventually, tptb (the man, the government) will put restrictions on geocaching that will effectively shut it down. When that happens everyone will be hoping for benchmarking! Hopefully geocaching.com will recognize these trends and adjust accordingly and keep benchmarking alive and well and changes will be beneficial rather than detrimental. Dan

I think the Colorado Admin is doing his job, I know he did not approve a cache of mine until I could give him the information concerning permission. (I screwed up by not getting permission before submitting). Of the hundreds of caches submitted every year he must trust cachers to give him accurate information and to let him know of caches that are against the guidelines. If I had the time to contribute to being an administrator I would. but I have commitments as a moderator on another website that takes up too much time to be fair to approving geocaches in a timely manner. As for "over-concerning" our selves out of a good sport, the greater danger is 'under'concerning' ourselves out of a good sport. Dan

I down load the PQ that shows all of my found caches. Then I open the gpx file in Google Earth. I do not save it in google earth. I reopen it every time, an extra step but simple. I allow a couple of minutes for all the icons to settle in place before I start planning. I end up with orange icons generally covering up all the caches I have already found, makes it very easy.

These are hidden in violaiton of the guidelines and I agree that they are bad for our sport. My question to you is, what did you do about it when you encountered these caches? Did you log them and go merrily on your way, or did you log an SBA or report the caches to the local reviewer? From my original post Originally I searched for these caches and logged several but as time goes on I am either developing a conscious or am getting smarter since I no longer will search for traditional and multi type caches on public property

Exactly! I don't know that permission was obtained. If there is not statement on the listing that it was then I have no reason to believe it was. If permission was obtained then the "owner" of the cache should have no qualms about stating so. I really doubt though that permission was given to place a magnetic keyholder under the base shroud of a light pole in a Lowe's parking lot. (GCQD8P) (Yes, I did find it but just because I did in the past does not make it right.) I really don't think the owner of shopping center wants folks moving the cover and potentially exposing the wires and getting electrocuted. Some common-sense must apply and placing this cache here does not show any. Dan

I think, given some of your statements, that this will be an entertaining thread this weekend. OOoo. I hope it rains across most of the country. Entertaining or not its a major problem! Dan

Continuing from my original post. I have also seen multis where the clues for the various stages involve defacing public property such as writing in marker on signs and benches the next set of coordinates. This being done on private public property! It is just as bad as not getting permission for private property! Dan

Unfortunately with the saturation of caches more and more are showing up on private property. Originally I searched for these caches and logged several but as time goes on I am either developing a conscious or am getting smarter since I no longer will search for traditional and multi type caches on public property. I am ok with virtuals and traditional/multis that have owner permission. Unfortunately, few if any caches have permission for private property. At times I have found caches that definitely violate the guidelines for cache placement. I can list a few located here in the Denver Metro area. If this trend continues, more and more communities will be taking action limiting placement of caches or making them illegal in areas. Private citizens as well as authorities will be pressing charges for not only trespassing but for destruction of property. I feel the only solutions for this problem is are first do not seek out traditional, multicaches that are on private property and do not appear to have permission. Second, if you become aware of one notify the administrators for your area to deactivate the listing. Thirdly, let the "owner" of the cache know its on private property. So what do you think? Do you get nervous about caches on private property? What do you do? What can we do? Dan