Barnstable

Thanks to El D for the welcome. I was a newbie who started a thread right off the bat and was pummelled around a bit--most likely deserved it, though! (see http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=70709) I actually enjoyed the give and take, because it showed how intelligent and well-meaning most cachers are. It's difficult if not impossible to post a thought or topic publicly to a large population without giving offense to somebody; the public speakers at Hyde Park in London take heckling as a matter of course, and I would suggest that forum posters be prepared for the same, and take it with good humor. After all, it isn't as if you are being torn apart by wolves or hung by your feet. An occasional verbal sparring session can even sharpen your wit and thinking. Without exception, those with whom I've sparred in the past have shown in other posts and topics to be generous with their knowledge and thoughtful in their replies. It's a good group, if prickly on occasion.

Bless you, Auntie. It's never in vain to care for another soul.

This thread is asking for perspectives on the "forum experience." Mine is a little different from that of a lurker, but I appreciate the chance to share it. I've been geocaching since '01, but only started reading the forums early this month. Instead of lurking for a while, to get the lay of the land, I hauled off and immediately started a topic that was of interest to me (the now-defunct Muggle thread). I got some pretty thoughtful, even philosophical, responses, dealing with the history of language, social momentum, the etymology of the word. Cool stuff. I also got name-called, insulted, and belittled, not just on the thread but also in at least one other topic. Now, please don't think I'm whining about it; I think it probably comes with the territory of starting a topic, especially when you take a strong stance in introducing the topic, as I did (read my initial post). Lively discussion has to allow for the negative as well as the positive, and the thread ended up with plenty of both. I do feel, however, that a line gets crossed when negative comments target the person, rather than the topic. I can see how people who have legitimate questions or comments might shy away from participating, for fear of getting attacked. I suppose that some people could have read my posts as insulting or personal, and if so, then I deserved what I got. But I've also read plenty of innocent, if ignorant, posts from others that provoked very harsh and/or condescending replies. It doesn't make sense (it's in fact contradictory) to suggest any kind of censoring of these kinds of comments. I'm all for free speech. On the other hand, I encourage all of us on the forums to condemn these attacks when we read them. They cheapen discourse, and foster an environment hostile to the free exchange of ideas and opinions. I will continue to read and post, because I find there is a lot to be learned from the geocaching community, worthwhile despite the turbulence of a few negative folks. Thanks to GC staff and community for the fun pastime and interesting discussions. JB

Thanks, you horny little bunny, you. 5, 4, 3, 2, 1-- bye-eee.

Oh, dear God ... I have done everything in my power to derail this train, but to no avail. I know, I know the smart people just simply pass by this discussion and not open it. I however, am not that strong. My biggest weakness is curiousity (and yes I know what they say about curiuosity, sorry Sparky no harm intended). Please, I am begging you Barbstable ... end this madness ... do it for the weak minded people (like me) and do it for yourself. You do not want this thread to be part of your geocaching legacy, do you? You still have time... kill it. Dude, please, relax. Deep breaths. Now, read up a few posts, and there I am, letting everyone know the topic ends today. Aren't you just a little bit glad that I kept it open long enough for you to include your heartfelt plea for sanity? Now, everyone will know that you were a caring, compassionate voice of reason, a lonely beacon of virtue in this bleak and cancerous thread. By the way, "Barbstable" would be a pretty good name for a metal band.

Look in the lower left hand corner. Oops. Duh. Thanks. I'll give this topic another day for anyone to get their last words in, if they have some. Then I'll try the Close option.

I certainly agree with the general consensus that this topic has been pretty much played out, and that most of the recent posts would be better directed toward that mighty steamship, Abject Silliness. Closing this thread would save a lot of good people from having to mutter, tsk, and heave great Al Gore-like sighs over being forced to read its contents, thus dissipating the energies they would otherwise be utilizing for cancer cures and famine remediation and other weighty issues. Such a move might immeasurably enhance the quality of life on this troubled planet. Since I was the originator of the topic, does anyone know if I can close it? Or is that a moderator decision?

ROFL--oh, wait, you're talking about me, aren't you? That's not funny.

if that's the way you feel, then have a season finale and shut this comedy down. Mmmm, maybe after ten years and a few Emmys...

Over 5K views of this topic about nothing--geez, we're like Seinfeld.

i do not own a comb. nor do i own a watch. draw your own conclusions. i think the only way to make this sport nerdier would be to involve computers and some high-tech gadgets and have it administered by IT guys. oh, wait... Hey, come on, we aren't nerds, we're geeks. Nerds are mentally passive people who just don't get it, whatever the context. Geeks are, essentially, active people who like to figure stuff out, and covet anything--equipment, strategies, etc.--that helps them to do that. Geocaching is a perfect application of geekiness; reality shows are the perfect food for nerds.

Hey, thanks! I am a surrealism junkie, from Bosch to Dali. This guy's stuff is great.

Um... No. We actually, uh, all decided to start using Nonc instead. Yes, hey, I was as surprised as anyone... Yeah, like that will catch on. Person 1: Hey, quiet... there's a n-o-n-c coming. Person 2: A what? Person 1: A n-o-n-c! Don't you follow the forums? Person 2: Yeah, why? Person 1: There was this long thread about what we should call folks that aren't caching and n-o-n-c was picked. Person 2: I thought they were called muggles? Person 1: Well, they changed it to n-o-n-c. Doesn't it roll off the tongue? Person 2: No... what does it mean? Person 1: NON Cacher. n-o-n-c Person 2: Can I still call them muggles? Person 1: You can, but someone in the forums said it was "officially" called n-o-n-c now. Person 2: Hmmm... I think I'll still call them muggles. Do you care? Person 1: Nope... I can't imagine calling them n-o-n-c and having to explain it to the thousands of folks that already call them muggles. Person 2: By the way, the n-o-n-c has been listening to this entire conversation and now knows where the cache is hidden and is asking us what a n-o-n-c is. What should we do? Person 1: Lets explain to them about this long thread in the forum that caused us to spend hours reading it, minutes discussing it, and accomplished, well, absolutely nothing. I'm sure it will put them to sleep and we can re-hide the cache and by the time they wake up we can be out of here. Person 2: Sounds good. But can you do me a favor from now on and just call them muggles so we can spend our time geocaching. Thanks!! You clearly have spent a lot of time here--but no one "caused" you to.

You're telling me that "Honkey Nonc Woman" has no soul? Tell that to the Stones.

Um... No. We actually, uh, all decided to start using Nonc instead. Yes, hey, I was as surprised as anyone...

Wait a minute. If what makes a muggle a muggle is that he or she can be converted, why use a word that, in its most familiar usage, denotes a non-magical person who cannot be converted into a magical person? As to "Nonc: see muggle."--okay, that one made me laugh. But at least, if true, it will save me from having to explain myself so often. "MUGGLE MUGGLE MUGGLE! NONC NONC NONC! MUGGLE MUGGLE MUGGLE! NONC NONC NONC! HOOOOO-RAAAAH (name of sports team)!!!" There's my new drinking cheer.

Pssst Clearpath... stop reading and it will be dead to you.

Thanks to everyone for their comments (and jokes and gibes) so far on this topic. I've decided to go with NONCs (rhymes with 'bonks"), mostly because I like the way it sounds, and because it derived directly from the original term we all used, non-cachers. For me, the cost of having to explain myself occasionally will be more than offset by the satisfaction of using what I consider to be a superior word. And if this word is adopted by others, so much the better. BTW, for the person who suggested we use the term "highballs," in your honor I plan to shout out that term in the middle of the woods during my next hunt.

Gotcha. And I agree. Pops and my idea of fun when I was younger was to find some obscure philosophical point, take random sides, and then hurl invective at each other for an hour or so. I can remember going toe to toe at the top of our voices, then one of us seeing a funny-looking dog or something, and we would both laugh and talk about that for a bit. Then we'd start yelling at each other again. So I guess I can appear stressed and serious when I'm actually having a great time. Somehow, knowing that a discussion topic is not all that important frees me up to get nice and worked up over it. For me, seriousness over a triviality IS silliness--there's no inconsistency there at all. On another topic, where did you buy those bizarre art cards?

your a godsend thanks... God sends chickens....?

So Barnstable, I'm very curious. Where did you let go of this very important value and take up the cause to eliminate the usage of a silly word in a game we're supposed to have fun in? I'm somehow reminded of Farenheight 451 and (generally speaking) feeling like I'm being told what is and isn't appropriate to be used. If you choose not to use it... OK. If you choose to use it... OK. But why go after change just because you think it's inappropriate to be used? No matter what word you come up with to use, if it isn't invented and universally accepted, it is borrowed. Most terminology and references today don't reinvent words to convey a meaning unless it comes down to that's the only way. Most of the time, terminology is borrowed because it has a universal meaning at that time of usage and doesn't take much to explain it. IF I have to use an invented word to identify people not cognitive of geocaching, then I probably won't use it. It takes too much time to explain it. Muggle is a universally accepted term (whether you like it or not) that most people can use which very importantly identifies very quickly what you are saying with little or no explanation involved. To extrapolate another reader's response about Mug in Muggle... does that mean I'm a Con because I get the CONception of an idea? No more than MUGgle means being a Mug or being Mugged. Most words in the English language will have familiarity with prefixes and suffixes. That doesn't mean it shares the same definition. It depends entirely on its accepted usage. Fag in the USA doesn't mean cigarettes like it does in the UK. But it is an accepted use... not politically correct in the USA, but still acceptable because it is universally used for slurs... but wait... it also means: But is it used for that? Not likely because of the way the word is accepted for usage. Acceptance is the key. I can come up with several other instances of words that are used to describe actions and objects. Some are offensive, some are not. Some I just don't care to use, others I will. Use your own term without campaigning to cause others to use it with you. Don't lose patience if you find you have to explain that term time and again because people don't understand your reference. And oh by the way, wherever you lost that value of silliness... I sincerely hope you find it again. You're taking life way to seriously when muggle bothers you that much in this sport of geocaching. Clearly, I haven't expressed myself very well to some of you, or for whatever reason we are not connecting. I've enjoyed the give and take in this thread; I've appreciated the posts of those who disagree with me, and have noted many times that they seem to be in the majority. I've even chuckled at some of the wittier fun-poking at my expense, and you can read my replies to prove this. If there is an aspect of this thread I don't like, it's the posts that belittle me or other posters for thinking the topic worthy of discussion, or that, like yours does, draws conclusions about my emotional makeup. Though, now that I think of it, you may have a roundabout point: since trying to peer into someone else's head is the height of silliness, I should be enjoying it rather than being put off by it (I'll have to mull that one over a bit...). So please, spare not one more ounce of your sincere concern over my too-serious life. Just to lighten the mood: giraffe walks into a bar and says, "Hey, everyone, the highballs are on me!"

I think the point went flying waaaaay over your head. Why are we splitting hairs over a word when there are far worse things that could plague us? Is that a bit clearer for you? You're missing my point. We split hairs over trivial things because we have the time, safety, leisure, and interest to do so--all good things, and positive developments for mankind. If you are going to pass judgements on whether something is worthwhile discussing or spending time on, fine, but you'd better realize that all such judgements are arbitrary, even if some appear more objectively supportable than others. You say, "Don't fritter away your time on this topic, when we could be discussing proper rehiding ettiquette." Then someone else says "How can we keep diddling ourselves with this rehiding ettiquette nonsense when people are plundering our caches!" Then that person is trumped by someone saying "I can't believe people are getting so worked up about the occasional plundering when most geocaches still aren't wheelchair accessible!!" Then the pastor's wife from the Simpsons runs in and screams "WON'T SOMEBODY PLEASE THINK ABOUT THE CHILDREN!!!" Then we all sit in a circle, feeling guilty. It's a whole I'm-more-serious-and-caring-than-you-are Ponzi scheme, and I think it's pointless. When Abraham Lincoln was shepherding the country through its most challenging time, and dealing with the weightiest issues imaginable, he took all the time he could spare to be frivolous and light-hearted. My dad survived starvation in Amsterdam in WWII, cancer at 55 and triple bypass surgery at 65, lived to be 78, and what I remember and cherish most about him was not that he battled his hardships with courage and determination (though he certainly did), but that he placed the highest value on laughing and being silly. So all of you cluckers and tskers can wallow in gravitas until it you're caked in it, then strut around like you've just said something important. I'll continue to be serious about my triviality. Is that clear to you?

Dude, please. Just a few generations ago, our ancestors were sticking each other onto crosses and pikes for believing (or not believing) that some long-dead guy was "God" or "of God", or for following simple rituals like dunking your face in water, or drinking wine and calling it blood. Humanity has been splitting hairs with language for thousands of years. By and large, people are much more egalitarian about the use of words than they have ever been--rashes of imbecilic political correctness notwithstanding. Would you prefer that the average person be traumatized by disease, hunger, or rapine? You say domesticized, I say civilized, and I'm glad of it.

Congratulations on your writing success. You are free to go back through the thread and see how many posts end up saying something to the effect of "I like muggle" or "I don't like muggle." There are a lot of them, and that's what I was hoping for. Sometimes the advocacy method, or an appeal to emotion, or even a provocation works better than a simple interrogative. As for doublespeak, I can only say that I have the highest respect for your thoughtful and stimulating conversation. As for ringbone, thanks for the link. It explains a lot about your attitude toward me, or I guess to my original question.

King Arthur: On second thought, let's not post here--it's a silly thread. BTW Jeremy, is your picture the kid who played Alfalfa? Looks like it. I heard he was a mean little guy.