root1657

There is nothing keeping a cache owner from doing that. There is also nothing keeping dishonest geocachers from sharing those codes amongst each other. I would guess that somewhere someone also already does this for trackables they probably never actually saw...

I probably wouldn't trade for a bottle since I couldn't be 100% sure it wasn't tampered before or after a cacher left it. I have seen those sealed plastic water baggies, that would be okay for me. Very neat! How do those work? do they have like a juice box straw, or you just rip the corner off and hope for the best or what? I've placed bags similar ro these in caches before. These are emergency supply water bags and are usually packaged in heat-sealed bags that are puncture resistant and will not rupture if the contents totally freeze. The water is usually sterile as well. You can find these by looking for emergency water on the net. Yeah, I'm with you on all of that, and did some searches, but I dont see, with the water bags shown, the method for getting the water out 'neatly'. Would be great if it had a drink box straw, or a corner that was made to be removed without spilling it everywhere...

So here is a question for you... why didnt they find the guys who really sang the songs and give the award to them? "um... here, we figured out that this actually belongs to you, and not... those guys"

Is your dad John Madden? Read in your best Madden voice: You see in geocaching, you have two groups... The ones who care about the numbers and the ones that don't care about the numbers. The ones that care about the numbers are the ones that care and the ones that don't care about the numbers are the ones that don't care. The coolest thing I ever heard John Madden say - "Now here's a guy... who, when he runs, he goes faster..." Read that with your John Madden voice and tell me that isnt awesome!

While mathematically possible, I find that very difficult to believe in real world conditions. Assuming you don't stop for meals, drink, rest or other biological needs, that is one find per 11.84 minutes. With 500 caches in an 11 mile radius, you're covering approximately 380 square miles. Averaged out, that is one cache every .76 square mile. Presuming you're evenly spread out (you may have clusters, but thenn have longer distances between clusters as well), you're traveling roughly 216 miles. Now, you can go "well, yeah, I can hop in a car and 216 miles takes me 3 hours--less if you knew how *I* drive!!". Not if you're covering it in average 3/4 mile increments you can't. Figuring an average speed of 25 miles an hour (which is EXTREMELY generous in this case since we're taking short hops and haven't considered parking), you're talking about 8.64 hours ONLY in the car. That's not counting getting out, searching, finding, signing logs and getting back to the car. That, of course, is presuming you're not riding a bike. Biking does help you avoid the parking issue and, with a well planned route, you might be able to keep travel to a minimum. That being said, though, unless you're a world class endurance athlete and traveling with a group of world class endurance athletes, I doubt you're putting 215 miles on the bike in 24 hours PLUS getting off and searching, signing logs and making sure you're replacing the cache properly. If anyone told me they just got done doing that, I'd insist they pull out their GPSr and show me the tracking logs to prove it. I'm sure I'm going to draw flames for this, but until someone can show me that, I call shenanigans. 284 caches at maximum cache density of .1 mile would only be 28.4 miles traveled. This is totally feasible with a well planned walking route in cache dense areas like San Diego. That is only slightly ove 1MPH average speed, and most people would find it difficult to walk that slow for extended periods of time. Make it 3 miles an hour for regular people, and it's about 9.4 hours of walking. Figure 16 hours of daylight on a good summer day and that leaves us with 6.6 hours to sign some logs, get something to eat, and pee behind a tree. Like one of the guys said, not the way I'd want to cache all the time, but it's doable from time to time.

Don't assume that because you can't do it in your area others can't do it in theirs. A PQ of my area (35210) shows 500 caches within 11 miles of my house... anyone that wants to find 80 to 100 in one day is invited to come and I will show you how! Certainly no way to cache every day, but it can be fun once in a while. Not to get away from the point of the thread, but many cities are probably also 'cache dense'. Take a look at the google map of San Diego for example. Same as the post I'm quoting, I think a 500 cache pocket query is only a couple of miles wide. Doing the math on a theoretical maximum cache density of one cache every tenth of a mile, then one square mile (including it's border points) is an 11x11 grid, which is 121 caches. With as many people as we have caching in a lot of cities, there is someone that has figured out how to place caches just about anywhere. I've never had more than a few caches in a day, but I can see where some serious double digit caching wouldnt be infeasable, or even really that difficult in some places.

Just arguing semantics here: If you are playing a game with no rules, you can't "cheat", no matter how you play. This is not a comment in favor of that behavior, just an observation. Before I get too judgmental on someone else's log, I try to discern their intent. If their intent was to deceive, then I'll call it as such. If it was not, then I won't. Folks in here can't come up with a definitive answer regarding the age old question of, "What is a find?", and I don't imagine the other gazillion cachers who never make it to these forums are any different. If I see a Found It log on one of my caches that says, "I finally made it to the middle of your God forsaken swamp. I saw your ammo can 30' up a cypress tree and didn't feel I could ascend safely, so I'll claim a find from the ground", I won't say the person lied, since they presumably, accurately described exactly what they did, nor will I say they cheated, since there are no rules prohibiting their behavior. The most I would say is that their logging standards are obviously much lower than mine. I dont know exactly how or why, but I read this post and all I can think of now is a scene from a movie I saw once... dont remember the name of the movie... There was a couple of guys standing there staring at a golf ball, and the one player says to the caddy that he has to count another stoke on it, cause 'something silly I dont really recall' happened, and the ball moved. One of the other guys asked how far it moved, the caddy kid says he barely saw it move and that it shouldnt matter. The guy says the ball moved, and he was counting another point against himself and that's all there was to it. The kids says if no one else saw it, then no one will ever know, and the guy says... (and this was the part I liked) "I'll know." The three men looked at eachother, and they all knew, he was playing the game the only way he could feel right about it. I think that comes into geocaching too. There are a lot of people doing a lot of different stuff, good bad or indifferent. As for me, geocaching isnt a competition, and so long as I'm not fouling it up for others, I play the game as straight as I know how. Much like they say about golf, geocaching is a game that can never be won, only played. I think that at the end of the day we would all agree on the 'gentlemens rules' of geocaching, but like so many things in life, not everyone participating is a gentleman (or lady as the case may be).

You and me both Brother! I started in spring of 2004, so now just past my 4 year mark, I have 50. On the up side, I remember them all, and enjoyed them a lot (most of them). When I see some of the numbers people are pulling it does make me happy to see now that retirement holds more options than fishing and building ships in bottles...

Yep, copperhead! And no, i'm not crazy, but i've messed with snakes quite a bit and since he was so sluggish, was able to grab him behind the head and move him. You can see that he was small too so i figure he wouldn't get me too bad if i made a mistake!!! I'm a discovery channel junkie. Be careful with the little ones, when they are that young they dont know yet how to control how much poison they inject when they bite, so sometimes it's only a little, and sometimes its way more than an adult uses. Apparently this is a skill they learn over time to use enough to defend and kill prey, but not waste it and have to make so much more.

Even if you have to ask for a hint or help from the owner, I think it's ok to log the find. You either found it or you didnt, right? If you feel better saying in the log that it took more than one trip and that you asked for help from the owner, I think that's ok too. And never feel bad about logging a DNF. What I think might be one of the best caches in San Diego runs about 50% DNFs, and has some of the funniest logs I've ever read. (Wedding crashers) Maybe it's my old military mindset, but what ever happens, log it, good bad or indifferent. The info is vital to the owner so they can keep track of the 'health' of the cache, useful to others, so they can see what's going on with it, and fun for you later, as a written history of your frustration, fun, and growth caching. First rule of geocaching: Have fun!* *I think that includes be safe, because a trip to the emergency room is rarely part of the plan, and rarely fun.

I probably wouldn't trade for a bottle since I couldn't be 100% sure it wasn't tampered before or after a cacher left it. I have seen those sealed plastic water baggies, that would be okay for me. Very neat! How do those work? do they have like a juice box straw, or you just rip the corner off and hope for the best or what?

I was listening to an episode of Podcacher and they discussed this. The cool point of the talk was that one of the GPS makers was going to make a civilian handset with integrated INS (inertial Navigation System). In a nut shell, the GPS gives the unit a location as always, but there are tiny solid state accelerometers inside that sense movement, and if you move x feet in some direction, it knows that. When you loose the GPS signal, the system will continue to plot a position using 'dead reconing' from the INS. With a GPS and INS integrated system, it would open up some huge possibilities for caches in caves, etc, where it's a bit harder now without it. Can you do it now without these systems, sure, but if you have a long way to go inside, or it's complex, it's going to be a fun time of measuring and figuring to make sure you are in the right area. No word on prices.

Surplus ammo, sold in bulk, still in cans, still has it's marking. What happens after that is on who ever is doing it. That was why I said it was so surprising how many make it out with marks intact, given the way we run the ranges.

I've been playing around with colors trying to get smoething that I really like. The one in the previous picture was a mix of portland cement, white sand, a hardener, and water. I considered using either fiber strands or wire for reinforcement, but I was concerned about their visual affect. I dont think it is necessary do to the size of the item. I created the mold using liquid latex rubber. I brushed thin layers of latex on my model rock, allowing each to dry before the next was applied. I guess I put about fifteen layers on it over a few weeks. Then, I put a really thick one on to ensure that the corners and base would be strong enough. Attached, you will find a pic of the rocks I made so far (and the mold). The real rock is in the upper middle. I am getting pretty good at matching it's appearance. I put the previously photographed rock on ebay. I figured I would place a few, give a few away, and sell a few to recoup my costs. edit to add the pic. <doh> It's awesome work. Difficult to even tell the real one when you clearly state it. I placed a cache with a far less convincing container, and it's difficult for people, so I can only image the fun they have with yours!

Please don't get upset just because others didn't buy into your hypothetical scenario. Upset? no. Disappointed with your compulsive need to discount the very notion of something that I said in my origional post was "astronomically improbable", you bet. Back to the point of what I was even talking about before you had to just crap on it, if there is even one single chance of if happening in the entirety of the universe, then why not just remove the number to prevent it and help protect the reputation of the sport? cept to be a contrarian. This is the part where you throw in some new dismissive comment about how it's all on me for being 'whatever'.

No need to send em back, the numbers just need 'adjusting'.

Improbable? yes. To the extant that I don't believe that any investigator would assume that the round spontaniously flew out of the box. Also, a simple review of the scene would show that this did not happen. Therefore: Impossible: YES. I agree. Unless there is an expended case lying in or next to the can, and a wound track that might indicate such a freak accident, no one will assume it was ammo from the can. Bdsices most force from the round self exploding would be spent ripping the case apart, not propelling the bullet with any great force. You guys can split hairs on this all day, but it's beyond the point of mattering. Would it be sorted out in the investigation as you say, yes. Can a round have lethal force without the support of a gun barrel? yes. Case in point, mythbusters did an extensive experiment with .22 rimfire carts being set off by non-weapon means, and having enough force to penetrate the crash test subject that was in the way. even that tiny round could explode with still lethal projected force. I was just putting it out there so people know. I've done that. Thanks for the feedback. root1657 Military Accociation Of Geocachers MESF Security Forces Watch Commander US Navy Marksmanship Team

Yeah, that should do. It doesnt have to be completelyunreadable, it just needs to be obvious that you intended to 'destroy' the number, which marks the can officially expended. Most of the time our armourers just give it a once over with black paint. It's just a quick drippy bad paint blast, but it gets the point across.

"Sarge, looks like we're gonna have to pull the ammo. The factory seems to have placed toys in out boxes instead of the usual....." Exactly... OK, like I said before, the odds of it happening are amazingly small, but it's not impossible. Imagine if you will a very excited FTF yelling Yippie!!! and then by who knows what series of events, they catch a round from somewhere. The second person to find the cache gets the worst second to find prize ever. In come the investigators. Our bad luck participant caught one of the popular size rounds from both the military and civilian world, like say 9mm or .223, but as luck would have it, it was the same size round as the ammo can laying at his feet. Now, we dont know where that round came from, and neither do the investigators, so we can not rule out difinitively that it was not the last remaining round in that can, and that it was somehow set off without the assistance of a weapon, and that our vic actually 'shot himself' with a defective round (cause they shouldnt just go off like that). So now the investigation gets kicked up a notch, and every remaining can of that ammo lot world wide is put into emergency suspense until the whole thing gets figured out. Even if that only takes a day instead of a week, there might be some unit somewhere that has it, and is unable to use it because they dont know yet if the rounds are defective, and might just go off for no reason. So, all the rounds from that lot have to be called back to the armory and rotated out for rounds from another lot. It cant wait for normal shift change, which means there is now a mad scramble to rotate all the watches to the armory to download, and the added stress of not knowing if the rounds in thier hands might just go off for no reason. Now we sink thousands of dollars and wasted man hours into testing and recertifying the ammo, and until that happens, those rounds are isolated and unusable. Once it finally does get resolved, everyone gets this awesome story about how it all could have been avoided if some darn geocacher would have just destroyed the lot number like they are suppossed to... well, most of it could have been avoided, we still have a dead guy and that whole investigation, but at least now they know it didnt come from the can. Improbable? amazingly. Impossible? no. all of those events are possible, and have happened individually. Totally within our simple powers to keep them from happening all together for no reason.

Clearly you have never met my brother Birdhunter1, and seen him kneeling in the mud and gunk, with his pencil in hand, using all kinds of interesting words while he works out the cypher...

You do realize that in civilian GPS terms 10-15 feet is dead center, right? and amazingly accurate for math being done on the timing of signals that are below the noise thresh-hold from satellites 163,000 miles above the earth...

In Soviet Russia the hints decrypt you... oh wait, sorry, wrong website... that was a canned Digg joke...

Why doesnt any ever like, break in and do the laundry or something like that? You want a temporary insanity defense, you better do the dishes and take out the trash...

OK, I have to throw this in... I saw a cartoon the other day that said the difference between good work and shotty work is the number of WTFs/minute when your work is reviewed. Hows that for a metric?

Maybe we should start a grass roots movement to get with lpc owners and convince them to move it to some other location nearby and convert it to some regular type of cache. It could be the new 5/5, go to a walmart parkinglot and search lamp posts relentlessly for hours because it doesnt occur to you that it's actually over to one side in a bush or something...