Grasscatcher
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Posts posted by Grasscatcher
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@ Jumpin Jack
If you're smart, you'll keep it that way. The "cable" would be the least of your worries. DeLorme carries "proprietary" to a new level of almost paranoia....just IMHO.
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I have a 76csx and have read alot about all the features of the newer GPSr - I bought the 76csx because I want the basics to stay put while gravy gets added on. I do not like to hear that the new units have great features like bad battery power, hard read screens and less accurate tracks. My tracks only sometimes drift but I can read the screen and have never lost power. I really really really want to read the screen. I hate my camera and phone for the same reason - can't see the screen. We can go to Mars but can't see the screen on a phone. Forget the res - give me something I can read. I really really really want to see what is going on. The 76csx also floats. It also has some neat Marine features to play with at the beach.
Sometimes you have to compare a GPS to itself to understand better b4 you compare it to anothe GPS. Do the same track over and over again with the same GPS and watch what happens. Not the same but still impressive. Sometimes my Forerunner out performs my 76csx - is this because it is further away from my signal blocking body! I don't see much drifting on my Forerunner. ???????? Very interesting!
Track on!
@GPS Hermit,
I too have a 76CSx, and for "overall performance" it has not been exceeded.(I also have an Oregon 550, and a 78S) Some features have been improved upon for use in playing games (GC) but that's not GPS features just game controller features.
I agree, comparing a GPS unit to itself is the only way to establish true repeatability. If it can't repeat with it's own self, how can you know the source of errors when it differs with other units? I have a 5 mile narrow single track loop hike that I use as a test. I have logged more than 20 copies of the exact same track with multiple GPSs (3) carried simultaneously (exact same sat conditions)on multiple days (different sat conditions)and carried in same and/or multiple positions, and some with ext antenna and some without. .....as you said....VERY interesting data.
Your assessment of the Forerunner/76CSx is along the correct lines. The Sirf chipset along with the Quad helix antenna is the most sensitive......but sometimes being "more sensitive" can be a bad thing. It can be more sensitive to bad (reflected) signals due to multipath error as well as being more sensitive to picking up weak signals under canopy. So....use that sensitivity and your knowledge to your advantage by varying carrying position to help block bad signal or better expose to good signal. After all, a GPS is supposed to be a "thinking person's" tool.
You'll also probably note that your 76CSX(and/or 60CSx series units) will log more bad "random" points when "stopped". That's also due to the chip/antenna sensitivity.
Newer units have different chipset/antenna combinations (it definitely IS the combination) and Garmin has had to really walk a fine line with software/firmware revisions to maintain an acceptable level of all the combined capabilities of accuracy/sensitivity. They created a high standard with the 60 / 76 series with Sirf lll and Quad helix.
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In my opinion (and apparently the opinion of some others), Garmin's 60x series were the zenith of performance, simplicity, and durability. I've owned various Garmin models since 1995, including some of the contemporary models, and have not found any that can outperform the 60x series where it counts for me: accuracy.
This is something that has puzzled me for quite sometime. Everyone raves about the 60CSx but you never hear much about the 76CSx which I have. According to Garmin it uses the same engine as the 60, is as accurate and as sensitive, has marine features, doesn't have the clunky antenna sticking up, and floats if dropped in the water.
Shhhhh !!.....don't let that out!(I have a 76CSx) The "innards" were exactly the same.(same chipset and antenna type) Shaped differently but almost exactly the same overall length and width. On one, buttons above the screen, on the other, buttons below the screen. WOW....what a major difference!
Opinions are like belly buttons....everybody's got one, but GPS accuracy under EXACTLY the same conditions is a different story.
I map trails (carrying all three) with a 76CSx, an Oregon 550, and a 78S. I have a good idea before I start, which unit will most likely produce the highest quality tracklog. That knowledge is based not on opinion but on past actual performance. Different units are known to perform better even when under exact same conditions. I still carry all three simultaneously.
It is determined and dependent on type of terrain and the logging conditions that day.
When old vs new is professed in relation to "being better", the FACTS prove that to be pure B(lowing) Opinion S(moke).
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I have noticed that the Garmin 60 series,especially the 60csx holds an high resale value even if they are discontinued.I own both the cs and csx and I can see why they do.Does anyone else agree or are they still dealing with the new etrex series frustration?
They actually also have some capabilities that the new ETrex series doesn't have.
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Oh, while I had the G rep on the line asking him about the Stopwatch function and Track Logging, I mentioned that a number of folks were upset about the "straight lines".
Considering the number of folks in the posts above that essentially have expressed that I'm FOS for the way I described how to keep- from getting the "straight lines", I asked him how to do that and then did NOT interrupt,or make suggestions.......
He proceeded to explain (preaching to the choir) exactly the same method I described in the "E Trex 20"
thread.......AND THEN, without any prompting or questions from me, said....and I quote, "If you get those lines, then you don't understand how to properly set your unit. The GPS is working just like it is supposed to and just like you have told it to work by your settings"....End of Quote.
I agree 100%
@AC, Let me know what you determine on the "stopwatch method" logging tracks.
It is painful to see Garmin's ignorance to this issue -- I was esentially told the same thing by one Garmin rep, who was as useless as teets on a bull. The other acknowledged and listened, but obviously, nothing has been done.
This is NOT the way prior units worked, and to make the claim that users who get the straight line tracks do not know how to operate their units is insulting, both from Garmin and on this forum. If it's intended to function this way, then Garmin should document that and help us understand the brains behind the unit a little bit better and why this happens. I could live with that.
Although it might help, I still don't feel as though I should have to fiddle with track editing tools and stopwatches to perform a basic tracking function. Garmin has been good, but I wonder if my Montana will end up as my last Garmin because they just can't seem to work out all of the glitches, nor do they really seem to care to.
I had a 550T, I have a 550, and a 78S. ALL those are PRIOR to Montana and ALL work and HAVE worked "that way".
You DON"T have "to fiddle with" any track editing tools nor do you have to use the stopwatch....that's just a different feature /function. Really it's kinda neat!
quote :"If it's intended to function this way, then Garmin should document that and help us understand the brains behind the unit a little bit better and why this happens. I could live with that."
Maybe I'm just a lousy explainer, but when someone tries to "help you understand", you call that insulting. Kind of a catch 22 wouldn't you say? Can you live with that?
The key to start understanding is to understand how the combination of different archiving frequency and clearing the track log work together. Go back and carefully read the ETrex 20 Track Problem thread Post #22.
Clear the Current Track at the start, and Save at the end (before leaving that location)
If you are still within the same archive period when you next turn it on you will get the straight line (because it is tying all data together within that archive period)but if you Clear Current Track at the next "Start" , it will disappear.
Older units like the 60 series and the 76 series operated totally differently. They had a totally different file structure and no "archiving". Tracks could be logged directly to the memory card and there was a thing called "active log" where tracks were logged (similar to today's Current Track) and some data was lost if the operator "saved" a track. It's all totally different now (and better).
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I upgraded and wish I did not. Why cannot Garmin use common sense? They need to fix te straight line problem. To see if I had the problem, I powered off my 550T and then turned it back on. I got the straight line, but it was worse than that. It connected from where I turned the GPS back on with a straight line to about 1/2 mile before I turned off the GPS!!!!!
@myotis,
I don't understand that one......can you send me a copy of that gpx file to look at in other software?
churst40@gmail.com.
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Just like phlatlander said, and Atlas Cached tested, activating stopwatch dashboard on the map page and then using start/stop/reset on the dashboard causes a separate new gpx file to be created in \Garmin\GPX\Archive. Identified with time and date and "Stopwatch" then has extension ".gpx". Each separate file only contains the one track segment from when the stopwatch was running. No "tails" or other garbage.
I tested by walking around the block stopping watch,walking a way the reseting,then starting watch. Sometimes I stopped watch,reset immediately, then walked a ways ,then restarted. Appears that the tracklog saved is only the portion logged when watch is actually running.
No tails anywhere.
I just called Garmin Support and explained how this all came up and suggested that they might want to publish info of their "NEW FOUND" feature.
Thanks again,phlatlander and atlas cached !
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@AC, Let me know what you determine on the "stopwatch method" logging tracks.
Hey Atlas & jholly,
I understand about Garmin and Easter eggs ! MANY times users know more than Garmin Reps....
However......I just called and specifically questioned them about that function. The rep said NO but went and got a Montana 650, then an Oregon 550, and then an Oregon 450. I waited while he personally tried all of them.
(Take this with a grain of salt) He says the stopwatch function in NO WAY affects nor is tied in anyway to track logging on any of those three units. The stopwatch is strictly that..... an electronic stopwatch....period.
Do either of you guys have any proof of that function or example gpx files? I'm really curious now.
Just rechecked my Oregon 450 and 550t both with 5.90, and using the Stopwatch Dashboard in the Map Application will archive each individual track with date and time stamp each time you 'Reset' the stopwatch.
Edit to Add: SAME Exact behavior with my Montana 650, for those who are interested.
@Atlas Cached,
Thank You !.....that's a perfect example of "Easter Eggs" and that Garmin Reps can be, and often are, incorrect/wrong/or misleading.
Thanks again.
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Oh, while I had the G rep on the line asking him about the Stopwatch function and Track Logging, I mentioned that a number of folks were upset about the "straight lines".
Considering the number of folks in the posts above that essentially have expressed that I'm FOS for the way I described how to keep- from getting the "straight lines", I asked him how to do that and then did NOT interrupt,or make suggestions.......
He proceeded to explain (preaching to the choir) exactly the same method I described in the "E Trex 20"
thread.......AND THEN, without any prompting or questions from me, said....and I quote, "If you get those lines, then you don't understand how to properly set your unit. The GPS is working just like it is supposed to and just like you have told it to work by your settings"....End of Quote.
I agree 100%
@AC, Let me know what you determine on the "stopwatch method" logging tracks.
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Hey Atlas & jholly,
I understand about Garmin and Easter eggs ! MANY times users know more than Garmin Reps....
However......I just called and specifically questioned them about that function. The rep said NO but went and got a Montana 650, then an Oregon 550, and then an Oregon 450. I waited while he personally tried all of them.
(Take this with a grain of salt) He says the stopwatch function in NO WAY affects nor is tied in anyway to track logging on any of those three units. The stopwatch is strictly that..... an electronic stopwatch....period.
Do either of you guys have any proof of that function or example gpx files? I'm really curious now.
They did at one point.... But you know how Garmin likes to add and remove features with each firmware release. I will conduct some of my own research and report back... I only know about this because I read about it somewhere else, and used it successfully with my Oregon 300/450.... Now I have a Montana 650, and I have shortcuts that accomplish the same function ;-)
Shortcuts? that do what? and How?
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Hey Atlas & jholly,
I understand about Garmin and Easter eggs ! MANY times users know more than Garmin Reps....
However......I just called and specifically questioned them about that function. The rep said NO but went and got a Montana 650, then an Oregon 550, and then an Oregon 450. I waited while he personally tried all of them.
(Take this with a grain of salt) He says the stopwatch function in NO WAY affects nor is tied in anyway to track logging on any of those three units. The stopwatch is strictly that..... an electronic stopwatch....period.
Do either of you guys have any proof of that function or example gpx files? I'm really curious now.
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Learn something new everyday!
I never have used the stopwatch and definitely wasn't aware that the stopwatch page and/or Dashboard worked that way......will definitely try it.
I've never even seen anything mentioned about that capability/function.
Thanks phlatlander !
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@gpsn2012,
You're right, I'm not involved in your specific mapping project. However, I have mapped literally several thousand miles of trail(s) in snowmobile systems, atv and hiking trails so I'm not talking from complete ignorance.
The distances given by GPS odometers has never been, is not now, and never will be, as accurate as using track length after editing to remove irregular and random points. What software do you use for editing your tracks?
You mentioned "not always convenient" , maybe so, but I prefer accuracy over convenience.
The odometer is so inaccurate that I don't even have it in my series of pages that I display.If you are using distances from the odometer then your mapping project will not be accurate either....sad but true....sorry.
If you'll note, my instructions SAID to clear it at the TH/Start. After you finish and save the specific track, then what the unit logs and adds internally afterwards is unimportant because THAT is what you will Clear at the next TH. At the end of the day or mapping session, what you have is a series of accurate saved individual tracks, with no connecting lines and no bogus data.
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I don't understand where the "3-5 extra steps" concept is coming from???
I use "Archive Daily" (next best thing to "Archive at Power On". You watch, someone will think that "Archiving at Power on" is TOTALLY inadequate and will want auto archiving every XX minutes. Archiving alone is not the solution.
It's the combination of how you have your unit archiving and clearing the log pre trip (to get rid of pre trip garbage) and saving at the end (to keep post trip garbage from being included).
At the beginning of a hike/trip I clear the track log and at the end I "save" it...... Easy, clean,individual trip/track log with no "lines" or other extra data points either on the unit or in downloaded data. Isn't that what the original complaint was?
On some of the older units (pre current file structure units) you could force the unit to start a new, separate, active log file by turning unit off the back on.
If you have logging turned on, then the unit is logging anytime it is powered on whether or not it's getting good signal or not. Your settings and operating procedure just control whether or not some of that bogus data is attached to valid data that you want to keep.
So...isn't that just a matter of understanding your unit and how to use it's various settings and capabilities to accomplish what you need and not get what you don't need?
As was said before, no big deal. Especially since I don't have the problem.
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Another way....
Try to re-do the hike and GPS it again if possible. Now......does the GPS repeat with itself? ie,duplicate the first results reasonably closely? Maybe it's the map(s) that are incorrect not the GPS. You can narrow it down pretty quickly.
Also, depending on the terrain, incorrect results can be a result of "multipath" error which is caused by reflected satellite signals.....hiking in a canyon, or close to a cliff face etc.
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@ Sduck
Post is "E Trex 20 track problem" posted Aug 31, 2012. It was at the very bottom of the first page of posts when I just looked. Explanation is in Post #28 in that thread.
Sorry but I have NOT received any PMs or I would have immediately replied. I'll look again.
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@ Mtn Hermit
If you set and operate your unit where you don't get the "straight lines" then I can't see how it would add distance to the odometer.....(Does it ?). It's pure operator choice in settings as to whether or not they are created.
If you don't create them in the first place, then there are no deletions or work arounds. It's your choice and your choice alone........so why would anyone think that Garmin has a "Problem " or "Bug" that they are not fixing?
I have logged literally several thousand miles of trails and presently use a Map 78S,an Oregon 550, and a Map 76CSx. All with latest vers of software....I don't get the "straight lines".
New operators I can understand having a problem, but it's really puzzling that several "experienced" posters in this thread and the one on the "ETrex 20 Track Problems" are stumped. Read that thread and you can see why you either get them or not.
What am I missing?
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Just finished a test of v5.90, it FAILS exactly as did v5.80. So Tempe will have to wait for a fix of the track errors.
The two main errors I've seen are:
- A straight line is added to consecutive tracks, connecting end to begining
- That straight line distance is added to the odometer reading
A work around likely exists, too much bother.
Firmware version 5.50 had neither of these defects, I'll be going back to v5.50.
Bummer
I'm involved with a GPS mapping project for our regional trail conference and state parks. I've run into this straight line track issue as well as the odometer issue on the Montana. Bove have the potential to ruin the entire thing if I'm not real careful in the field, and even then, I'm still having problems. What's worse, I can't seem to edit out the straight track in Base Camp or Mapsource. It just puts it right back in. I'm probably going to have to use the Oregon next time out, and may never upgrade from v5.50. I'm running a real risk of going out and collecting miles and miles of tracks via hiking or biking, and then having them become completely useless.
I spoke to Garmin about this a month or two ago. One tech seemed concerned enough and was diligent in collecting information and feedback from me (I think his name was Keith). The other was utterly useless, said that this is normal behavior, and that's just the way it is (I think her name was Tiffany). I was unable to convince her that the Oregon didn't do this prior to the release of v5.80, and her demeanor was more like that of the cranky receptionist at your local doctors office. That was early/mid July and nothing changed, so I guess they don't care enough about this, or enough people aren't complaining about it.
In Basecamp, using the Select tool, click on the straight portion to select it , then get the Divide tool and "divide" it anywhere on the straight portion.
Then go over in the List area on the left and click on the track in the list that got added (probably Track 001) delete it.
If there is a second straight line, do the same sequence again.
In this forum, read all the way through the post named E Trex 20 Track Problems....to find out how to keep from getting the straight lines.
If you still have problems, go to my profile and send me a pm. I don't want to get into another p contest on the forum, but it's no big deal to fix and to not get the lines or lose any data.
- A straight line is added to consecutive tracks, connecting end to begining
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Can you help grasscatcher?
Sorry, No...I don't geo-cache. I've been GPSing since before the Geocaching game was even invented and don't consider it to be a challenge but do find hunting Benchmarks to be more fun.. I map hiking,atv,snowmobile trails and map irrigation ditches and such.That's why I was so adamant on the other subject. Too many thousand miles of logged tracks.
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@russelln 114,
I STILL stand behind my last previous statement 100%.
You need to understand what it is you are seeing and learn how to operate your unit.
Pretty bold Grasscatcher. No need to get your panties in a bind.If you needed attention now your getting it. We are all on here for a reason. When people on here make things personal it gets annoying to the person who started the thread. My reply started with Sorry Grasscatcher Not I'm right and your wrong. Your post shows him how to get rid of the line using basecamp. My post shows him how to get rid of the line using his gps. The way i described to Dave was the way it was explained to me. It worked so I'm letting him know.This is not a bashing forum. It's a helpful forum. One more thing Grasscatcher. What i'm seeing and learning is that you need to calm down and relax for it's not that big a deal.
1. Not bold.
2. No panties in a bind.
3. Not taking anything personal
4. My post explained how to get rid of the straight line after downloading out of the GPS.(if you get the lines)(which are due to SETTINGS and OPERATOR procedures)
5. Your post was talking about the straight line that CAN be created ON the GPS and said that the only way to prevent it was to turn track logging OFF. That is NOT correct.I NEVER turn tracklogging OFF. Never have,never will, and don't have "the problem"
6. Did you notice that I said that I have a 78S, which uses the EXACT same update file as a 62S....one of the models that another poster (pa hunter) says has the "problem" ? I always keep the latest ver. software. I DON'T have the problem.....what does that tell you??? It should tell you that there are details that you're not understanding.
7. Your seeing and learning that I need to calm down is also incorrect because you should see that I'm not one of the ones with the "problem"or "bug". I'm as calm as a dog laying on its back with all four feet in the air soaking up the sun on its belly!
8. No bashing.....but you do have to be willing to THINK about what you are seeing.
Think about these words..... Archiving, tracklogging, clear current track. Note: Tracklogging Always ON.
When you turn your GPS on and it locks onto sats, it starts the breadcrumb trail. Now Think....how often are you archiving?? Daily,Weekly, when full???
I won't try to cover every possibility but follow this...
At home I turn the unit on to check batteries etc., turn it off, drive to trailhead 15 mile away.
Turn unit on again, it starts BC Tr again, and connects to first BC Tr at home with straight line because, you are still within the same archive period......and the speed calculated for that straight line is 15 miles / time between home and trailhead. It's doing exactly what it is supposed to do between those two adjacent trackpoints.
Now, if you don't want that line, when you get to the trailhead and turn your unit on, and it acquires a lock,go to track mgr., Current Track, Clear Current Track, Yes.....Line GONE
It clears current track back to the beginning of the present archive period.
The BC Tr now starts at the trailhead with no straight line attached.
Now, do your hike and when you get back or to your destination, you have several options.
Save and Name your track on the unit while still right there. (It has no straight line tail on it)
Turn unit off.
When you get home and turn unit on (and it locks on) ...BAM ! you've got the "Tail". Now... think about this....if you covered up the antenna with your hand to prevent it from locking on in a different location from the end of the hike, and downloaded the track, it would NOT have the tail.
Now, when it locks on, look at your unit......it's got the "tail". If it does, then that means that is the "current track" and that you're still in the same archive period. You ALSO have a copy of the same track (without any "tails")in Saved tracks, but you can't see it without the tail unless you "clear current track"....one is on top of the other.
The "tail" doesn't cross archive periods so you can minimize occurrences by shortening to "Daily".
You are correct in saying that it's no big deal. You can either prevent it from occurring on your unit by your choice of settings and operator actions or if you screw up and get the lines then you can just download the data and remove them on your computer......then upload any desired tracks without tails back to your unit.
Just wondering...
Now do you understand why I'm still correct in standing behind my statement that you don't have to turn logging off? and that the Garmin rep. was wrong?
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@russelln 114,
I STILL stand behind my last previous statement 100%.
You need to understand what it is you are seeing and learn how to operate your unit.
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you have to stop recoding your tracks. you get a line because the unit starts recording again whe you turn it on. on the main menu go to set up -tracks- and hit do not record at the end of your activity .
Thanks, everyone. Saving the track immediately sounds like to way to go.
Basecamp won't let me delete the "straight line" bit. Both Delete & Erase are greyed out.
David
Like lost said you have to stop the track. even if you were to save the current track you still have to stop it. Go to setup then tracks then tracklog then click on (do not record)
NO !.....Absolutely NOT.......This (saying the operator must stop logging) is inaccurate, erroneous, wrong information ! End of conversation !
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I do most of my track editing in another program, but it looks like that in Garmin Basecamp you can use the Select tool and click/select just on the straight line portion of the downloaded track and then just delete it.
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When I create a track of the route I have just walked then switch GPSR off, then turn it on again e.g. at home, it adds the current location to the existing track. There is a straight line (as the crow flies) from end of track to this point. Not really desirable if I want to save the track. Any ideas on how to prevent this. Software version 2.80
thanks
David
Easy fix...."Save" the track before you turn the unit off at the end of your track.
When you get home and download the "tracks" , the "saved" version of the track will NOT have the straight line but the "current" track WILL because it is ongoing at all times when the unit is turned on. ( if you have Track logging ON)
Just select the correct one in your list of tracks after downloading.
If you turn track logging off and on, believe me, you will forget that it is OFF until at the "wrong" end of a hike that you "Thought" you just logged.
Delorme USB Cable
in GPS technology and devices
Posted
Just for a slight comparison.....with Garmin cables.
I'm still using the first "serial" cable I ever got(years and years ago with a 12XL) and a second one has never been taken out of the package that it came in with my next unit. I use the first one when I hook up my 76CSx or 78S in an APRS setup.
Mini USB cables? Still using the first one I ever got with a unit and the two that came with my Oregon 550 and my 78S are still in their original plastic bags in the boxes in the closet.
Oh yeah, at least one, generally two, and sometimes all three units are used and downloaded EVERY DAY.....never had a cable failure yet....maybe tomorrow.............
DeLorme should do better on cables than they have. Users should NOT have to buy extras as insurance against PP quality. Just IMHO......