Benchmark Blasterz

I saw this one -- I know I did. It was in the 3rd block, slot 52Q, snugly slipped in between Natural Lakes and Tri-Points and Multi-Points. I read the category description, and wrote up a draft submission for a new waymark in the category. I saved my proposed WM (WMGD8Z) for submission later. Now -- nothing. No unfinished WM WMGD8Z, no Invasive Species category AT ALL, and Tri-points and Multi-points is in 52Q. It's a *little" early for an April Fools joke. Has this ever happened to anyone else???? Should we suit up and beat the weeds to solve the Mystery of the Vanishing Category?

First, I wonder if another major issue with garden dovecotes would be that they are not publicly accesible? I have seen these on-line for home garden use -- they ARE very small. I have never seen any racing pigeon lofts -- gotta run! More thoughts later

I commonly allow use on my photos FOR FREE with a photo credit. No photo credit, no AUTHORIZED use. For nonprofit groups, I give my pictures to support their organization, but with a restriction to use my photos for non commercial purposes only. That system works for me and for the people and organizations that I support with my photos. I have never had anyone refuse to give a photo credit or insinuate that a request for a credit was inappropriate. I have never had any person or organization use my photos for anything other than the intended purpose. I know this has happened to other photographers, however. Each photographer can make up their own minds about how (or whether) they will allow their work to be used. Those decisions are personal to each photographer. I support and respect each photographer's preferences in this area -- the ones who plaster "© by name, all rights reserved" diagonally across their photos in colored text and the ones who are willing to freely give without attribution or restriction. May God bless us all as we practice out art and our craft.

Ha! Yep, that'll teach 'em! I completely agree with cache test dummies that a rewrite of the Category Creation Guidelines would be the best solution. This discussion has been VERY INFORMATIVE and ILLUMINATING! I think rewriting the guidelines is the way to go. BRILLIANT!! Now -- what is the process to get that done?

Andreas, please accept our deepest condolences on the loss of two very treasured friends. We are very sorry for your loss. We also extend our thoughts and prayers to the families of the departed. We hope that you will remember the good times you had with your friends, and that these memories will both comfort and sustain you in the coming days. LPCox AKA Mama Blaster

Can the edited new category submission be posted here first? Then we will look over it again and make sure there are no things in there that need clarifying that have been missed. THEN resubmit in peer review, and I bet a lot of No votes turn Yes, Yes??

Agreed. Another brilliant tip from the Experienced Ones

Hi Max and 99 -- You obviously you have thought about this issue. Can you please share your thinking on it a little more? Your input might shape my thinking on this. After all, I do not hold a corner on wisdom (or so my teenager tells me, every day) I admit that I wonder sometimes if folks AVOID the forums because they don't want to hear ANY criticism of their idea, even when it is intended to be CONSTRUCTIVE. Therefore, a requirement to come here first might intimidate or discourage folks from the hobby. Does the discussion forum have a reputation as a brutal place? I think we all try to be helpful. Has that factored into your opinion? I respect your judgement and opinions. I also appreciate discussion as I seek both to understand, and support, this fun hobby.

Forgive me if this has been discussed before, but is it time to consider requiring new categories be vetted through the discussion forums here? Waymarking is growing now, especially in Europe. THIS IS NOT A BAD THING!!! However, we are seeing several new categories being proposed directly in Peer Review by new waymarkers without coming through the discussion forum for some feedback and shaping, and those new categories have some issues. Some of these proposers have been receptive to coming with their proposals back to the Forum, and agreeable to making some changes. But if they don't want to, they don't have to. While the enthusiasm and desire to participate that these newcomers are bringing is GREAT FOR Waymarking as a hobby, the POLICY question is, Has WM broadened in appeal to the point that all new category proposals should be required to come through the discussion forums BEFORE being submitted to peer review? If so, then (1) how would that change in the submission guidelines be accomplished, and (2) what would the limitations be? For example, I would not support the discussion forum being a final veto over a category idea. BUT -- it might be appropriate to require that a recommendation from the WM community on a particular category AFTER it had come through the discussion forum be appended to the submission BEFORE the category idea gets put out there in peer review. Sort of like a staff report to a city council on an applicant's zoning case: An applicant brings a reqest for a zoning change to city government staff. Staff looks at all the variables (the historic land use, the request's compatability with current zoning, and the comprehensive plan, the request's impact on nearby uses, etc etc) before presenting their recommendation to the city council. Council is free to accept, modify, or reject the staff recommendation, and council's decision is final. In this case, the applicant is the category proposer, staff are the folks here in the forum, and the council is the community. The recommendation of the forum would not be binding, but it might encourage submitters to consider and incorporate suggestions made here into their category before throwing ill-conceived or overbroad categories out there for the community to vote on. What my political experience has taught me us that people are good-hearted folks by and large, and they like to vote YES. It's why ballot initiatives are written the way they are, and why VOTE NO! campaigns are so loud. The NO supporters know they have to get the attention of casual voters who will see a question and vote yes without having paid a lot of attention to the issue. We have an innate human social desire to get along, and the politicals writng the ballot initatives know that. oh - and only category owners or officers would have a vote on the recommendation. That leaves mere waymarkers like me on the sidelines, but also prevents recruiting for positive votes in the forum from the ranks of the non-category-owning or -supporting waymarkers. We see that in peer review, where cachers get their buddies to vote yes. Again, as a political I see nothing wrong with turning out your voters, but I think there needs to be some level of experienced review in the categroy-proposal process. I love creating waymarks, but I am not ready for category duties yet. If that means all I can do under this structure is throw in my 2 cents (a bargain at twice the price) then so be it. When I want a vote on the recommendation, I know what to do If this idea for a forum recommendation is accepted, its language should be very standard, such as "This idea has been reviewed in the discussion forums, and the consenus of the participants is that this category should be recommended for approval" or "After consideration in the discussion forum, it is the consensus of the forum participants that this category should not be recommended for approval." -- something generic and NOT overly critital, or personal. General objections might be appropriate: "not global," "not prevalent" "redundant with [category]" -- but no judgemental objections like "not interesting" or "not significant". Caches get reviewed before being published (although by a different process where a cache owner can be refused the ability to place a cache by TPTB -- which is NOT what I am advocating for WMs here). Why shouldn't WM categories have some structured review process too? Wouldn;t that make foir healthier categories and therefore a stronger hobby? Thoughts? PS -- Don't anybody shoot me. I am NOT trying to stifle anybody's creativity or pass negative judgement on anybody's proposals, whether accepted in peer review or not. I am just seeing the same "didn't come to the discussion forums" objections from WMers I respect in the peer review, and I find myself voting to deny otherwise worthwhile categories for that reason also.

Why limit it to small craft businesses? Why not ALL extinct occupations. Then you can waymark the changes in technology that gave rise to the modern world, or the changes in society that led us to how we live today, or the growth of new products to replace the old (from pottery to glass to plastics for example). I know that's nearly infinite in scope. EEK! Also - some of the occupations you listed are still active, even growing! These trades and skills are not in danger of being lost to the ages, they have just moved into the realm of arts and not utility. Like basket weavers -- hand woven baskets are readily available, especially in the southwestern US. They are woven by primarily Native Americans as art objects and tourist gifts. I have bought several real Indian-made nice ones BCF (before college fund- ha!) Where you used to have a few weavers in an Indian village, now you can have dozens. The market has expanded so that some fake Indian baskets (and kachina dolls) are even imported from China!! No, REALLY!!! Glass-blower is another example of a once prevalent occupation now moved into the artisan realm. Potter, ditto. Candlemaker double ditto -- all those cool trades you see at Colonial Williamsburg, Fort Worth's Log Cabin Village or Dallas' Old City Park are now making serious bucks for busy folks. We have thousands of scented-candle businesses operating now. And what Dale Chihuily does with glass is astonishing. Another consideration is that here in Texas, all the historic horse and livestock support jobs listed above are still VERY MUCH alive, though less common than 100 years ago when there were vastly more horses and cattle around. Blacksmith, farrier, saddle maker, etc are all good jobs here with lots of work available -- as much as each one can handle. "Livery stable operator" and "trail drive cowboy" not so much, though. Regular Cowboys will DEFNITELY always have a job in Texas!! Some say the Dallas Cowboys are extinct, though -- In Kentucky and Tennessee where they make WONDERFUL whiskey, coopers and barrel makers are very sought after, and there are apprenticeships and classes on learning the trade. We have a busy bookbinder here in Dallas who specializes in restoring old family books, rebinding new books in custom covers, or repairing rare library books. There can be a long wait sometimes to get your book fixed, but the bookbinder has lots of business. She is niche-y, but sustainable. It very well may be that folks don't make saddles anymore in Bavaria, but you can order one handmade to your specifications in the Fort Worth stockyards today -- and they take credit cards!! The same is true for hand-made lariats, hand-woven horse blankets, hand-crafted bridles, and hand-forged bits. Giddyap, y'all! YEE-HAW!! I guess the point of all that wondering is what would be the criteria for determining whether an occupation fit into this category? Extinct in one area, or ALL areas? A transition from ubiquity to specialty? From utility to artisan? If obsolescence due to technology was a criteria, then we can add punch-card operators and telephone exchange operators to the list -- number, please!! I think this could be a cool category and I would be happy to waymark in it, but I would like to discuss its scope some more. I am disappointed that you are limiting it to small craft businesses and not government-supported trades. There are lots of trades that were chugging along (some where the government was the ONLY supporter) until a government body put the kibosh on them, and thereby dooming the skill. For example, the Texas county-government-level office of Hide Inspector. Hide Inspector used to be a critically important office 125 years ago, but in the modern era the need for it had diminished. Although these were as a tiny county offices, closing them would have required a majority vote of all Texans statewide -- for each of 254 counties. I think one of the counties in West TX was the last to have a hide inspector. I remember the guy campaigning for the job on the news asking for folks to do away with the office and put him out of the job! His ultimate goal was to raise awareness of this antiquated office, and get them all abolished. (Everybody say, "that's MY kind of politician!" here, and get it out of your system. HA!!) After his specific referendum passed, an embarrassed Texas Legislature pulled this office out of the state constitution, and (after a statewide vote authorizing that move), killed the other offices themselves in the next legislatuve session. Ah, Government process -- it only took five years, three legislative sessions, two statewide votes, and a few million tax dollars to kill 254 (mostly long-vacant) offices that paid a salary of $400 a year. That's some good policy stuff Similarly, the Navy has closed out several enlisted ratings like PM (pattern maker), PH (photographer's mate) and others that have been overcome by technology. So (getting back on topic) I think endangered/extinct occupations could be prevalent and global, DEPENDING ON WHAT THEY ARE. Yak-milker - not so much. Cartographer -- maybe BUT (and this is a big one): What EXACTLY could be a waymark in this category?? For Tarrant county hide inspector would it be the site of the former office? Or a ranch where the inspector did some work? Or the grave of a hide inspector? Or a purse factory that formerly used inspected hides? Would there be a number of waymarks accepted for an extinct occupation(remember: 254 counties, 254 hide inspectors ), or just one? If just one, how would you account for the different manifestations of each extinct occupation across the world? American saddlemakers produced different saddles with different techniques than European ones -- is there enough distinction between the two to make for differetn waymarks? For decommissioned Navy ratings, the same question. Could a WM be a museum with an old rating patch on a displayed uniform? A decommissioned ship where PMs or PHs were assigned? The grave of a PH in a national cemetery? I remember that RM (Radioman) was on that inactivated ratings list -- RMs were ABSOLUTELY INDISPENSABLE for communcation, and therefore, there were a million of them, assigned to EVERY command (I had 1 in my unit, and I ran a legal office!). Could the possible WMs here be any Navy Museum, or maybe a Navy Archives building? A picture TAKEN by a Photographer's Mate? Something made from a design by a Pattern Maker? A command where a PM, PH or RM served? A piece of old commo gear used by an RM? You listed rope-maker -- in the Navy our equivalent is Boatswain's Mate, and BMs are VERY MUCH ALIVE and practicing the historic aspects of their rating, which had been all about making ropes and knots, i addition to general deck seamanship. Check out the beautiful knot boards made by every BM worth his salt. Or the delicate Boatswain's Lace that decorates Navy ship quarterdecks or command boards. Their duties may have changed, but they keep their history and traditions alive. I had 2 BMs in my unit. I loved my "Boats!" No scatalogical jokes, please -- BMs know how to make all kinds of knots, including a Hangman's Noose! They also make nets -- FYI. HA See a current list of distestablished ratings here, if anyone is interested. Lots of obsolete trades are listed here, that even if large industried are disallowed, may affect small craft businesses: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Navy_ratings I am not trying to rain on your category or be ugly. This novel I have written (sick child home -- therefore Mama Blaster is NOT going ANYWHERE) is a way of trying to wrap my tiny brain around what I could find to waymark here that would be cool and worth searching for. hmmmm Your idea has merit, it just may need some more consideration to define the boundaries and rationales.

One other question we have now is whether this category is limited to the ancient dovecotes like are found only in Europe -- the ones in your super-cool pictures. We have several homing pigeon racing clubs in North Texas. Presumably those birds are housed in a modern-day dovecote or equivalent. Would those be waymarkable in your category, even though the structures are new and may be merely utilitarian? Allowing modern dovecotes will broaden the category and make if more global, but are these what you are looking for? Maybe these would show the development and adaptation of the ancient dovecote to modern times if allowed - which depending in how you look at your category might be valuable for it. Historic preservation + promotion. You see that we are already thinking more about dovecotes and seeing if we may be able to support this new category with a WM!

Chiklim -- I am so glad you have come back to the forum! I was hoping that some of the negative votes you recieved would not frighten you away from working with the smarter waymarkers than me that write here. Their advice will help you to make this waymark EXCEPTIONAL and SUCCESSFUL!! I have read the forum posts, and I have learned a lot from them and other waymarkers. The messages can be blunt sometimes, but I do not take it personally. I think everyone here has a sincere desire to see your category succeed and help make it the best it can be -- there is a lot of wisdom here, and I hope you will take advantage of it.

Texsport -- all this information you have (about the original materials being stuccoed over, the house being built by your grandfather and PURCHASED by Coates, etc) is important historical information that the local historic group would LOVE to have! Give them a polite call and offer to work with them to nail down all the errors and omissions in their artifact. Local history groups are usually very gracious and accomodating for folks who are coming in a spirit of preserving history, not "correctimg your group's mistakes that wronged my relative". The local group may be willing to correct the record locally and with the National Register for you -- and add your grandfather's name WITH Coates name. Alternately, they may not go to the NR, but might correct the knowedge and narrative of the house locally. Then maybe YOU could find another category to WM the house in, with the new name? We have a farmhouse in Grand Prairie TX called the Jordan-Bowles house, which was built by Jordan but soon sold and lived in for decades by Bowles. see WM807F here: http://www.Waymarking.com/waymarks/WM807F_Jordan_Bowles_House Correcting the name of the waymark is not something that you can probably get here at Waymarking, for the valid reasons BruceS stated. UNLESS the name is changed at the National Register database level (we think this is unlikely but perhaps might be possible), the name of the WM must match the name in the database. That is how the category was set up. The rules must be followed or chaos ensues. I sense from your post that it is the CREDIT for building the house and ACKNOWLEDGEMENT of your grandfather's contribution to the community and this part of its history that is important to you. This valid goal can be accomplished by working with the local historical society folks. Please treat them kindly -- they are good-intentioned, good-hearted, unpaid, VOLUNTEERS, who meant no disrespect to your grandfather and who are doing the best they can with the information they had at the time. They went with the fragmentary story they had for the house. They should be very glad to have more facts to flesh out the history of the house, and connect it with MN's vast anbd fascinating mining history!

He can use my photos for our Holocaust waymark WMF8JQ (if he thinks this will fit into his project) with a photo credit. He can contact me through the Waymarking website.

One more thing -- LOVE the logging feature! It helps keep track of previous finds

We went out benchmarking caching and Waymarking again yesterday and used some more features of the app. We really liked that you could search for BMs by your present location, but again not all nearby BMs were found. We also think the search by GPS feature could be relabeled or explained the first time you use the app to make it clearer that this will use your phone's GPS to search for nearby BMs. The button just says "GPS" -- that might not be clear enough to everybody. This app was great for quickly resolving long-term disagreements about whether a particular RR bridge probably had a BM on it while driving by -- and we have 2 more if my fave finds as a result . I always told Daddy Blaster that those RR bridges looked benchmarky to me - but he says I say that about ALL the RR bridges. ha! Again - very useful app, just not with all the BMs on it. Thanks for creating it - we are using it every time we go out.

I think the point about multiple entries for each WM could be valid -- if your goal is to rack up visit numbers. For example, I spent 2 days in a very historically important, highly-concentrated, and multiply-monumented place. If I had a week to repetitively log each waymark there in each category, after 4000+ visits and photo uploads of monuments (and only being partially done) I'd wind up hating WM too. So I only log visits to waymarks in categories I need to fill my grid in a little bit more: maybe in 1 or 2 categories only. I lived and learned on that. I also have waymarked one place in numerous categories. If a single historic building could be WMd as a natl register property, & a flatiron building, & a dated building, & a US benchmark, & a masonic lodge, & there is a humorous combination business inside, & it has a lion statue outside -- I will WM it in each category so that someone who is trying to fill in their grid will hopefully visit and find my WM useful as they play their game. Maybe that will help keep them interested in WM. Other times I will take a multiple and only WM it in the least-utilized category, leaving other categories for future WMer to do the heavy lifting on. Depends on what time I have and what my schedule is like. Remember: just because one thing has 5 WMs on it does not mean you have to record 5 visits - unless you want to!! Or just because one thing can be WMd in 7 categories, you don't have to do them ALL! I also try and see if different WMers posted the waymarked thing in different categories. If so, I will try and log a visit on each WMer's waymark. I like getting visits on my WMs too I try and leave a better comment that "visited" or "posting my visit." Those remind me of TNLNSL TFTC logs -- of which I have posted my fair share (on a 250-cache bison-tube on a fence post power trail, for example.) I don't gripe about visit logs to my waymark. Everyone plays the game differently. I am glad someone read my WM and it was useful to them in some way. As long as WMing adds to our benchmarking and caching adventures we will keep doing it. In fact, I have many WMs from this weekend to log, and many others to create! Bait Shop, Boat Ramps, CCC, State Parks, TX Historic Markers, Bells, Outdoor Public Sculptures, Humorous Combination Businesses, Murals, US Benchmarks, Painted Utility Boxes, Non-Specific Veteran's Memorials, Specific Veteran's Memorials, Wagon Wheels, Independent Bakeries, Hiking Path Footbridges, Hiking Trails, Water Dams, Hydroelectric Dams, and Piers, are the categories I will be submitting WMs for. That's enough to keep me busy for 2-3 weeks!!!

Hi! We used the iPhone benchmark app this weekend, and we have a couple of comments and a question: (1) Where are you getting your benchmark database info, and how are you selecting it? We noticed that not all the NGS benchmarks are on the app. For example: BZ0703 M 321 is not shown in West,TX, and we know it's there because we found it. Admittedly, it was recovered in poor condition. Are you leaving those BMs in poor condition out? They are still useable and worth searching for. Another example: CS2255 E 195 and CS2256 F 195 nr Walnut Springs TX -- the app has CS2254 D 195 and CS2257 G 195, but not the two benchmarks in between. All 4 of these BMs are there, since they are on abandoned railroad bridges that are intact. When we could access the bridges, they were cool FTFs!! One (CS2254 D 195) was in use recently, since it was marked with surveyor's tape. (2) It would be useful to be able to search for benchmarks by city and state, not just zip code. We had to exit the app, go to google, get the zip code, and go back to the app. Not a problem out in the sticks where one zip code covers many square miles, but how would I know which zip code I was in for Houston, which has a million zip codes? Without a GPS, I wouldn't have accurate coordinates to search from. (3) We LOVED the datasheet info that was right at our fingertips, and the recovery info too. That was very helpful making pursuit decisions on the road quickly -- no jumping back with the computer between NGS, scaredycat, and geocaching. Using the computer can be a long slow slog out on the sticks where connectivity is low. (Have you looked at www.scaredycatfilms.com? It's where we start our BM hunting planning. They use the NGS database, and update it frequently.) (4) We also liked very much that a lot of the extraneous info that we don't need is pared out of the app. (5) The app loads quickly and didn't crash for us all day. We'll keep using it - but so far we think it can be a useful tool. Thanks for the app! Benchmark hunters are the bastard stepchildren of geocaching -- thanks for treating what we do with enough respect to create an app :)

I just downloaded the app for my iPhone 5 -- we may be able to play with it this weekend in Meridian

What I have learned as a former elected official is that if you ask people to vote on a proposition, they will almost always vote YES, no matter the question. This is why bond election ballot items and proposed constitutional amendments are written the way they are, and why "Vote NO" campaigns are always so strident and vehement. There is a natural human social tendency to agree, and opponents of ballot measures know this. That having been said, I voted for the Danish benchmarks category because -- that's how we got started in all this!! LOL

We agree with fi67 and TanteHossi -- we have seen many lovely pergolas that could be waymarked, and many that are as interesting as the latest ubiquitous cookie cutter thing. The quality of this category will be in the details!

If there's a book about it, then waymark it in the "There's A Book About It" category! I'll visit!!

Not being ugly or overly critical, but how would you distinguish between the two? Here in Dallas almost all our skyscrapers are covered in glass, so would they qualify in both categories? <-- That is NOT a disqualifier in my mind -- many WMs are appropriately housed in multiple categories (in fact, it might be interesting to find the single WM that is accepted in the most number of different categories). Back on topic: How could you write the long category description to be unique? Maybe you might limit it to clear glass buildings (or adjuncts like atruims) that are transparent? Most skyscraper glass is 1-way or reflective glass (for energy efficiency and aesthetics), so maybe that could be a distinguishing feature for your category. Another question: Would you accept greenhouses in this new category? If the purpose of the category is to WM cutting-edge WOW-factor glass architecture buildings, you might consider if greenhouses (or other plain utilitarian non-WOW glass buildings) would be appropriate in this category. My first reaction to this category is one of positivity and enthusiasm (with a few WMs that might fit here in Dallas in my mind already). Tell us more!!!

Hiya Beav -- I voted YES on your category. Did it make it? I can't pull it up in the category search.

I am a newbie, but I have to think that with the hundreds of waymarks added each week there HAS to be value in what we do -- even if the vast majority of our waymarks will NEVER see a visit. I will take Lumbricus's words to heart and Look Ahead Positively -- I think WM has a future, and its best days are still ahead. Plus, I am having fun with it right now