LSUFan

Jim, I'm sure others feel as I do, and appreciate all the work that you volunteer in maintaining the statistics. We also understand that it is a hobby, and life will always take precedence over it. Good luck in your move and renovations. Wish you were closer so I might could help in your housing switch.

Unfortunately this happens. George Leigh with the NGS has stated that he contacts ebay when he sees the marks on there. Bill showed us one last year that sold, and had a wild espionage story detailed in the description of it. It sold for a large amount and in reality was just a reference mark to a triangulation station. I think the link Bill provided in the opening post of the forum below is still good if you want to get a chuckle. http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=274828&st=0&p=4740446&hl=ebay&fromsearch=1entry4740446 Here are some other forum topics where the ebay selling was discussed: http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=252438&st=0&p=4373300&hl=ebay&fromsearch=1entry4373300 http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=24999&st=0&p=337598&hl=ebay&fromsearch=1entry337598

I am not sure of USGS reference marks. USC&GS (NGS) reference marks are "usually" within 30 meters of the station, as noted by George in his excellent pinned triangulation station tutorial at the beginning of the benchmark forums here. Here is a link and excerpt from it: http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=185361 REFERENCE MARKS - Reference Marks (RM) were set to assist in locating the Triangulation Station and also to help determine if the Triangulation Station was undisturbed in its original position. The measured directions and distances to them could also be used to reset a station mark if required. Reference Marks were factory stamped with “REFERENCE MARK” and with an arrow used to point in the direction to the Triangulation station. The original surveyor stamped the RM with the name of the Triangulation Station plus the number of the RM, just prior to setting. For example, the first RM for station JONES would be stamped “JONES NO. 1 1936”. The surveyor measured the direction and distance from the triangulation station to the Reference Mark (RM) and recorded the information as part of the station’s description. Later, if a surveyor attempting to find a Triangulation Station stumbled upon a RM first, the arrow and the published distance and direction between the RM and station would be valuable aids in the station recovery. To check the position of the Triangulation Station, the new surveyor could measure the angles and distances to the Reference Marks and compare them to the original values. USC&GS specified a Reference Mark as early as 1913. By the 1920’s, two Reference Marks per Triangulation Station were specified. Reference Marks were usually set within 30 meters (one tape length) of the station. Reference marks were numbered clockwise from north and set about 90 degrees apart. If a RM was destroyed, a new Reference Mark would be set using the next consecutive number. The disks would be set in a concrete monument buried in the ground, or set in a drill-hole in a large structure or bedrock. This type of disk was used from about 1913 to about 1970. Although the distance and direction provided enough information to compute the positions of the RMs, it was not standard procedure to compute them. After about 1970, National Geodetic Survey REFERENCE MARK disks were used. Now we have found reference marks a good distance from the station. which is really not the norm. We found reference mark 2 for the station Sicard over 900 feet away. I'm not sure if this was going to be an azimuth mark originally, then turned into a reference mark. http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/cgi-bin/ds_mark.prl?PidBox=CQ2664 I personally note in the station recovery, if the reference and azimuth marks were found and their status..........and also post a separate recovery report on the reference/azimuth mark if it has it's own bluebooked datasheet. http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/cgi-bin/ds_mark.prl?PidBox=CP1404 http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/cgi-bin/ds_mark.prl?PidBox=CP2965 P.S. Triangulation stations (and their supporting marks) are my favorite kind to look for.

It's a mixed emotion thing. I hate to lose our resident guru, and all the help/information he has provided every one of us....but I am also glad for DaveD and his well-earned retirement. I wish you the best Dave, in anything you decide to do. Hopefully, you will stay in touch with your friends here.... from time to time.

Chances are pretty good that most of the hard to get to ones are 'Triangulation Stations' that may have served their purpose by being occupied only once in their life (and that at night!). A great part of my enjoyment in this hobby is in the map scouting preparation (not always complete) and then the in the field route selection - particularly when I can make the initial approach via kayak. kayakbird I agree with Mike, there is a tremendous amount of personal satisfaction to be obtained from doing research, then finding an approach to a mark like this. However, sometimes the reverse can happen. A mark that was placed out in the boonies originally, can have a road beside it now, that you can drive almost up to it. My favorite all-time find was one we did GSAK filtering, aerial map studying, then actually found it from 1878. TillaMurphs and myself have had the pleasure of seeing this one. http://www.geocaching.com/mark/details.aspx?PID=CP2772

I have noticed the same thing as ArtMan about the pictures showing up on datasheets before recovery reports. Are you using DSWorld to submit your photos? If so, Malcolm (the author of DSWorld) told me awhile back that he was the one who personally uploaded those pics to the datasheets, but the recovery reports (even if submitted thru DSWorld) are handled by others at NGS......so you have two different people/departments that upload the pics and updated recovery reports.

A good place to start is the benchmark forums, located at the link below: http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showforum=40 I suggest you start your education reading the first five pinned topics there Jennifer also has a good beginners guide: http://surveymarks.pbworks.com/w/page/14246997/FrontPage I also made a benchmark 101 forum for our local geocaching site.... from info obtained from gc.com, the NGS, and the great people in the benchmark forums. http://www.nelageo.net/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=13&id=6841&Itemid=54 You also want to make sure you understand how to read the datasheets for benchmarks, ESPECIALLY if the coordinaters are scaled, adjusted, or possible even HH1 or HH2. Here is a tutorial on that part: http://www.nelageo.net/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=13&id=10956&Itemid=54

I can understand your logic there. It's your call. However, if you do use the GEOCAC option as the reporting agency on your NGS recovery reports, it makes it easier for Holograph to keep a record of your recoveries for his map/statistics pages. His software parses for the term 'GEOCAC' as the reporting agency. Of course, that aspect may be of no interest to you.....but to some of us (I'm guilty), it's fun to see the maps colored in. If you are still curious about reset marks........Last year, I actually asked a forum question about some reset marks, where the original marks were still in place just a few feet away. This is where I learned about these kind of marks, and what got my curiosity up to do research on the type. http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=266800&st=0&p=4581989&fromsearch=1entry4581989

Wait, reset disks are considered to be "not recovered?" What Ernmark is stating, is that TU0858/J22 is NOT the same as the reset disk. When a disk is reset, it should get an entire new PID. Sometimes a reset takes the place of the old mark that was destroyed/moved, sometimes it even uses the same disk, but the mark gets the word reset stamped on it. Once it's reset, then it is supposed to get a new PID and new datasheet........even if reusing the same disk. EX: You might have a mark that was monumented in 1910, but was reset in 1970. The new marks datasheet (and new PID) will say it was monumented in 1970........not 1910. The mark also should have the word 'reset' in it's designation. Here's an example of a reset I found recently: http://www.geocaching.com/mark/details.aspx?PID=CQ0772 Here is the NGS procedures for resetting disks, and the vertical accuracy of using reset's. It explains it better. http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/heightmod/Leveling/Manuals/Benchmark_9_13_07.pdf It appears you submitted a recovery report for TU0858 (which is not the PID for the reset). I glanced at DSWorld and do not see a PID for the reset disk, so it may have not been bluebooked with the NGS. Ernmark states you should have submitted a "not found" report for PID TU0858....cause you didn't find that one. You found the reset. You found J22 Reset from the year 2000, which is really not J22 from the year 1979......even if the same disk was reused, because its most likely been moved and the values will be different. If there is no PID for the reset disk you found, then you can't log it with the NGS (unless there has been some kind of error). You can log it on Waymarking though. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news......but at least you know now. Maybe our resident ninja, DaveD, will see this forum and fix the datasheet for TU0858. He may want to keep your info there, as it shows any future seekers, that there is a reset in place now....and the published values would not be accurate for it.

Bill, I had saved the following link in our benchmarking 101 forum in our local geocaching forum a few years back. It is from the NOAA and has all kind of easy to understand readings. It states that the lessons are oriented for students in the 9-12th grade range. Hoever, it didn't say if that was American schools or Japanese schools. LOL http://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/tutorial_geodesy/lessons/global_pos_tutor.pdf

LOL. It doesn't appear Nebo get's near the visitors as Mag does, but it's also not located at a publicized state high point either. http://www.geocaching.com/mark/details.aspx?PID=FG1846 Even though ya couldn't find the station, the drive up Nebo is fun nonetheless with all those switchbacks.. I am planning to take the motosickle up it around next March to "truly" earn my 'two miles of wild' patch I got from the gift shop there a few years back when were staying nearby at Magazine Mountain.

Had some friends visiting Signal Hill today, and I warned them not to mistakenly log the benchmark in the mural as FG1888. This got me to wondering if it was still being logged incorrectly, after Secondgunman's lengthy explanation as to what has happened. Yep, it is still being logged wrong.....as we probably all fully expected. Oh well, it makes for forum conversation. http://www.geocaching.com/mark/details.aspx?PID=FG1888

It tells how to log them on the Waymarking site for US Benchmarks, copied below. Since you are not logging one in a known database, then only the parts in bold will apply to yours: Instructions for Posting a U.S. Benchmarks Waymark: As of 2/1/2010, the following change is in effect. There are also thousands of things like nails or wood stakes with painted triangles, small round washers, disks less than 2 inches in diameter, survey ribbon, and the like, making it obvious that the marker is a survey point, but this category will not include them. These items that were waymarked prior to 2/1/2010 are grandfathered. A closeup photo of the disk is required. A second photo taken a few feet from the disk with the disk in view is a very welcome addition! A description of how to locate the disk is required in the Long Description field. This is particularly important for those marks not listed in an online database. Example: 14 feet NE of a 4-inch oak tree and 7 feet W of the face of the curb of Main Street. Example: 8 inches inside of the SW corner of the bridge. Note: Only general detail is required if the position of the disk is made clear in the second photo. Example: near the NW corner of the intersection of 7th Street and Maple Avenue. Coordinates based on reading your GPS receiver are required. You must use either NAD83 or WGS84 datum. ------------------------------------------- If you used an online database to find the mark, use either A or B below as applicable. If you used an online database (Geocaching's, NGS, or a local database) that has an individual URL for each benchmark's datasheet, provide the URL of the benchmark's individual datasheet in the "Web address of this benchmark's datasheet" variable. If you used an online local benchmark database that does not have an individual URL for each benchmark's datasheet, provide the URL of the database in the "Local database's URL" variable.

The following is taken from the benchmarking FAQ's, which is a good primer for those just starting out. http://www.geocaching.com/mark/#notin

I agree with Harry, as I now see the first bridge you referenced isn't on the right road (Hwy 37). The second bridge, besides being on the right road, also has the correct compass directions. Good call Harry Dolphin. If we paid you anything, you'd deserve a raise. LOL

If you are indeed at the bridge over Kalialinui Gulch, you might want to try and look at the place where the arrow points in the attached pic.(maybe under the white rock or piece of concrete) My experience with marks that are set in abutments, is it usually means a pier or crossmember of the bridge that the road sets on.(however the definition of abutment is just where two structures meet) Looking at the actual compass on google earth, the directions don't really line up with the datasheet descriptions, but that would be the closest thing.

ROFL. Thanks for the comment Tillamurphs. Does this honorary position pay as well as Holograph's Chief Statistical Analyst? It surely couldn't pay less.

Wes, Mike is correct. You didn't actually find the benchmark above, which would have been a disk, that had T 1149 1959 stamped on it. What you most likely found was the rod that the disk "used" to be attached to. Since you didn't find the disk, you didn't find the mark. All the exact measurements were taken to a point on the disk (not the rod).....so what you found wouldn't be able to be used by a professional to the accuracies stated. The proper log/report for this one would be a "not found", just like the Power Squadron reported it. They called it correct. Your first reaction is to log it as a "destroyed" since the disk is missing and can no longer be used to the published accuracies. The NGS (and all of us) like to use the destroyed status sparingly, and with a 100% certainty. That's why the NGS states that they want you to have the disk (or other) basically in your hand, to prove that you found the mark and it is separated from it's setting (therefore not able to be used for it's intended published accuracies). If you have the disk (or pieces of it that can be identified with 100% certainty)in your hand, then there is no doubt that it is destroyed. Without the disk, there could be an outside chance you didn't find the correct mark, and it does exist. This uncertainty can exist because of the published geographical coordinates. If they are scaled coordinates, this is where someone took a topographical map and guesstimated where the benchmark is located and put those coordinates on the datasheet. These guestimates can be off by 600 feet or more. That's why it is important to use the description and make sure the measurements are accurate from the roads, trees, buildings, listed on the datasheets. Also, since you could possibly be 600 feet away from where the benchmark is actually located, the NGS wants to be 100% sure, you located the benchmark you are looking for (and not possibly another one placed by a different agency for some reason). Here are some examples of marks I reported as destroyed: http://www.geocaching.com/mark/details.aspx?PID=BW1564 http://www.geocaching.com/mark/details.aspx?PID=CP1645 That is part of the reason that if you don't find the actual benchmark listed (and it says what it is supposed to on the mark), then you didn't find the mark, or can say for 100% accuracy that is is destroyed. If there is a 0.00001% chance that the benchmark could be there, then you need to log it as "not found". Even when marks are set into roadways, then paved over, the mark is still there, just covered over. If someone with the proper authority wanted to, they could actually drill down and use the mark.....although highly unlikely, it's still not considered a destroyed mark. You would log it as a "not found" with a detailed explanation of what you found on site (ie road was repaved and mark assumed buried underneath the pavement) So, my recommendation for the mark you found, would be to log it as a "not found" and post in the log that you "assume" it could be destroyed due to finding the rod without a disk attached. Using the word "assume" gives you leeway. It is just as important to log marks as "not found" and when certain, "destroyed"....as it is to log a mark as "found". The professionals who use these marks and therefore have a use for our recovery reports, need this correct information. They certainly don't need to waste their valuable time searching for a mark in the field that is not there, but they think it is because of an erroneous report sent in by a geocacher or other person. It's also important to see if a benchmark is there, if someone like the Power Squadron reported it as a "not found" previously....so you can correct the latest status on the mark too. We have a friendly competition going, to see if we can find marks the professionals couldn't. Here is one of my personal favorites, where I was able to find one that the USGS and Power Squadron both reported as "not found". I also submitted the pics and updated Handheld 2 coordinates, whereas anybody who needs to use this mark should be able to locate it in short order. http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/cgi-bin/ds_mark.prl?PidBox=CQ0666

Wes, can you provide the six digit PID (or a link) of the benchmark you are referring to.....so we can read the datasheet to see what was supposed to be there. It's possible that it is destroyed.....like if there was supposed to be a disk attached to the rod. Glad to see you having a good time. You will become a pro in no time. Have you had time to check out the FAQ section below yet? It provides a lot of useful information for the beginning benchmarker. http://www.geocaching.com/mark/ It is extremely advisable that you gain a good understanding of the entire recovery process, benchmark types, and other things before submitting reports into the NGS. This knowledge can be obtained by reading a lot of the pinned topics (and others) in these forums, as well as asking questions...which you are doing. I wouldn't rush to submitting recoveries with the NGS. You cannot just edit information you submit to them, and you want to be correct in your submittals.

On the surface it doesn't seem like there would be a connection, until you understand the entire scope of the program. The Power Squadron entered into what is called a cooperative charting program with the NOAA (The mother agency of the NGS) many years ago. The PS voluntarily perform all kind of in-the-field things that help the NOAA update/maintain many important things. Since geodetic control points are under the control of the NOAA, it makes perfect sense that the Power Squadron would help with these too. You need to remember that the NGS before 1970 was called the US Coast and Geodetic Survey...... and the coast is where the boats are. If you are just beginning in benchmark hunting, it is a good idea to understand exactly what the geodetic control points are, and what the National Spatial Reference System (NSRS) is.....and why the NGS maintains it. Here is a good link to it. Make sure to click on the tabs in the middle of the page to learn/read more, especially the survey marks tab. http://oceanservice.noaa.gov/news/features/nov09/directions.html Now in your beginning post, you referenced the USGS, which stands for US Geological Survey. This is an entire different government organization than the NGS (formerly known as USC&GS or CGS for short). I know all the government acronyms can get confusing. The database of listed benchmarks you see on gc.com is maintained by the NGS. They do have some USGS benchmarks in their database that met their standards for inclusion in the NSRS. The Power Squadron will look for any marks in the NGS database, which may include the ones from the USGS. The same goes for us geocachers who benchmark. Here is a article from about ten years ago, explaining the cooperative charting program between the two organizations. Hope this helps everyone reading who may not know the correlation. NOAA AND UNITED STATES POWER SQUADRONS PREPARE TO CELEBRATE 40-YEAR PARTNERSHIP The NOAA Ocean Service and United States Power Squadrons are ready to celebrate the 40-year anniversary of one of the most successful partnerships that has existed between a federal agency and a private organization. Imagine volunteering your own time to spend six hours anchored in a small boat and measuring the speed and direction of tidal currents every 15 minutes. Then you go home, fill out a slew of paperwork and report the results to a government agency. Or perhaps you can imagine volunteering to drive 100 miles in your own car, search for a geodetic survey marker that was set in 1933, and report its condition to that same government agency. Well, if that's your idea of community service, then you should look into joining the United States Power Squadrons. In 2003, NOAA and USPS will recognize the accomplishments that have been achieved through a program called Cooperative Charting. Under the NOAA Cooperative Charting Program, USPS members submit reports to NOAA on the condition of nautical charts, geodetic control points and the adequacy of tide and current predictions. NOAA uses this information to update its suite of 1,000 nautical charts and the U.S. Coast Pilot, a series of nine books that cover a wide variety of information important to navigators of coastal and intracoastal waters and the Great Lakes. These books contain supplemental information that is difficult to portray on a nautical chart. Topics in the Coast Pilot include channel descriptions, anchorages, bridge and cable clearances, currents, tide and water levels, prominent features, pilotage, towage, weather, ice conditions, wharf descriptions, dangers, routes, traffic separation schemes, small-craft facilities and federal regulations applicable to navigation. Who are the Power Squadrons? Organized in 1914, the United States Power Squadrons is a non-profit, educational organization dedicated to making boating safer and more enjoyable by teaching safe boating classes to the public and teaching classes in seamanship, navigation and related subjects to its own members. USPS members are boating families who contribute to their communities by promoting safe boating through education. USPS has some 60,000 members organized into 450 squadrons across the country and in some U.S. territories. USPS is the world's largest non-profit boating organization. In 1963, NOAA's predecessor, the Coast and Geodetic Survey, recognized that maintenance of the suite of nautical charts that cover the U.S. was a challenging task with the sparse resources at hand. Many charts would go uninspected by C&GS surveyors for decades. The idea behind the establishment of the Cooperative Charting Program was for local Power Squadron members to scrutinize their local charts for accuracy and report discrepancies to the government. Over the years, the program has grown to include reporting of geodetic survey mark recovery to the NOAA National Geodetic Survey. In a typical year, more than 12,000 geodetic marks are recovered and reported to NGS by USPS members. In addition, USPS members conduct tidal current measurements and report the results to the NOAA Center for Operational Oceanographic Products and Services. More than 2,500 USPS members throughout the country participate in Cooperative Charting each year. One of the cornerstones of the NOAA Cooperative Charting Program is the "Adopt a Chart" program. Under this activity, local squadrons take ownership of selected NOAA nautical charts in their area. Each year, USPS members inspect their adopted chart for discrepancies and file reports with the NOAA Office of Coast Survey. After a specified number of reports have been submitted, a written acknowledgement of a particular squadron's work is published on new editions of charts. Power Squadrons throughout the country have adopted more than 125 NOAA nautical charts. Over the last decade, Power Squadron members have become very sophisticated in the type and quality of data they provide to NOAA. Most nautical charting reports are positioned using Differential or Wide Area Augmentation System receivers. Many members collect depths with echo sounders, merge these depths with GPS positions on a computer and forward the data digitally to NOAA. Most recently, NOAA and USPS have undertaken an initiative to check the accuracy of navigational ranges throughout the country. While steering a boat in a straight line, a series of GPS positions are recorded while on the range. These positions are entered into a text file in a prescribed format, and then forwarded to Coast Survey in an e-mail attachment. Cartographers upload the data into a chart production system and review the data for adequacy. If a discrepancy exists — and they do 20 percent of the time — cartographers reconcile the problem with the U.S. Coast Guard. NOAA and USPS are preparing to enter a new era in Cooperative Charting. NOAA computer programmers have worked closely with members of the Power Squadrons to develop a Web based data entry system called CCWEB (Coop Charting Web). USPS members will soon have the ability to report all Cooperative Charting activities through this system. CCWEB should drastically increase the ease in which reports can be submitted to NOAA. In addition, the data will arrive in a standard format, making it more readily usable by Coast Survey cartographers. The new system is being beta tested by USPS members in North Carolina. NOAA's Coast Survey has already hosted about six regional workshops on CCWEB. More will be scheduled before the system's full implementation in April 2003. The celebration of the 40-year partnership between NOAA and USPS has already begun. On June 5, 2002, NOAA and the USPS officials dedicated a commemorative geodetic survey marker at USPS headquarters in Raleigh, N.C. Deputy Assistant Secretary of Commerce Tim Keeney attended the event along with USPS Chief Commander Ted Smith. North Carolina congressmen, David E. Price and Bob Etheridge both spoke at the ceremony and praised the constructive partnership between USPS and NOAA. USPS has proved to be a tremendous asset to NOAA's navigational services programs. In many locations throughout the country, USPS members serve as the agencies '"eyes and ears." Other parts of NOAA are beginning to recognize the value of using Power Squadrons to enhance local marine-related observations. For example, the NOAA National Weather Service is looking into establishing a marine weather observation program with USPS

Kayakbird and Southpawaz, thanks for the help and education. As always, ya have helped out tremendously.

What an eye you have, Mike! I saw what you were talking about in the aerial view. That is the mark, which you can plainly see the tapered post when you take google earth all the way down to street view. I'm impressed.

Thanks Mike. Any suggestions on what the No. 3 means, on the post?

Isn't this a national forum? Yes. I was telling my friend I was going to post it here.

One of my geocaching/benchmark friends sent me a question about a benchmark he found which is EH0329 It appears that the USC&GS in 1934 sort of took over a USGS mark possibly from 1908. Below is my answer to my friend, but I wanted to let the experts here take a look to see what your thoughts are on it. I had never seen this scenario before. I have also never seen a USGS disk set in a post with this kind of inscription either.....but I don't get out much. Any help would be appreciated. Here was my reply: Richard, that is an interesting one, no doubt. Just looking at the disk itself, shows some peculiarities. It is a US Geological Survey(USGS) disk, who are the people who make the topo maps. What is odd, is that the US Coast and Geodetic Survey (which is now the NGS) stamped this USGS disk with their initials and converted it into one of theirs in 1934. Can't say I've ever seen that before. IMHO, I don't think the disk was added later (1934), but was originally there in 1908 and then overstamped in 1934. The designation itself, G30, tells me that is most likely part of of level line run. Looking at a map, you should see other marks in a line with the same 30 stamping, but the letter of the alphabet changed. Ex: A30, B30...Z30. They will usually follow roads, rr tracks, etc. The fact the concrete post itself, is engraved with USGS #3 leads me to believe that in 1908 it was possibly part of a triangulation station.....maybe reference mark #3. I can't really tell if the disk was stamped with anything in 1908, or if the #3 could have just came from the engraving in the post. If the disk was mostly blank, that may be why the NGS put their stamp on it in 1934. Not sure on this part though. Problem with USGS marks, is that they don't have any online database to search for active or destroyed marks. All of their info resides in filing cabinets in their regional offices, which you can send emails or make a call to...and they will do a search and send you the results.....if you want to attempt to find out the history of the original disk from 1908. Here is a link on how to do this: http://gallery.usgs.gov/audios/130#.UF98XqDN6So However, any mark (including USGS ones) that the NGS bluebooks for use in the National Spatial Reference System (which is what you see on gc.com) are in the online database maintained by the NGS, which you are reading the datasheet for, from the point the NGS accepted it (1934) If you don't mind, this would be a good one to show my buddies out in the national forums...to get their take on it.