LSUFan

Yes, it was set in concrete, as the picture below shows. The datasheet made no mention of an underground mark, but I have found several other triangulation stations that do state it....which is what got my curiousity up on if all of these types had underground marks. It looks like I am going to have to make another trip back and do a full, all-out, take no prisoner, type of search now.....if there is an underground mark even though the datasheet doesn't declare it.

I found where the surface setting for DL1328 Triangulation station DONAGHEY has been basically uprooted and the disk is missing from the concrete setting. I recall sometimes reading on the datasheet where it describes the sub-surface mark, but didn't see on this datasheet, any mention of a sub-surface mark. I constantly read NGS Surveyors excellent pinned topic on triangulation stations, and see where it says these stations "may" have a sub-surface mark, but that may just be me interpreting it wrong. Can ya please share your wisdom, and educate me as to 'if all USCGS triangulations stations are supposed to have a sub-surface mark'. I wrote up a geocaching report assuming there is one, but was wanting to be more sure of myself before submitting a recovery report to NGS. http://www.geocaching.com/mark/details.aspx?PID=DL1328 As always, thanks so much for any advice you care to give. Bobby/LSUFan

I was back in the area of this benchmark/monument yesterday and decided to see if LA had done anything yet.....according to the previous posts. Imagine my surprise, when I saw it. As you can tell form the pics, they have cleaned it and put a fence around it. Kudos to Louisiana for helping preserve this for future generations. I think they did a great job. It looks new.

We were going to look for this one yesterday, but it was off in a pasture that we didn't want to trespass in. According to the datasheet, the witness post is 230 feet away from the disk. CQ2703'DESCRIBED BY LA DEPT OF HIGHWAYS 1966 (JB) CQ2703'THIS STATION IS LOCATED ABOUT 4 MILES NORTH OF THE CHOUDRANT CQ2703'OVERPASS AND INTERCHANGE ON INTERSTATE 20, ON LAND OWNED BY CQ2703'E.D. BROOKS. STATION IS SET IN TERRACE ROW IN PASTURE, 385.16 CQ2703'FEET SOUTHWEST OF A FENCE CORNER NEAR A GROVE OF PECAN TREES, CQ2703'428.10 FEET SOUTHWEST OF A FENCE CORNER NEAR A GRAVEL ROAD CQ2703'RUNNING NORTH, 269.82 FEET SOUTHWEST OF A TELEPHONE POLE CQ2703'NEAR SAID GRAVEL ROAD, 230.20 FEET WEST OF A METAL WITNESS POST CQ2703'AND SIGN SET IN FENCE ALONG SAID GRAVEL ROAD, AND 260.20 FEET CQ2703'NORTHWEST OF NORTHWEST CORNER OF FRAME RESIDENCE FACING SAID CQ2703'GRAVEL ROAD.

Well, we made it over to check on the Rayville Triangulation Station, that I asked about in the above posts. We struck gold (or was that brass, LOL) and found the RESET? surface disk from 1970.......along with reference mark 3 (which was what started the whole process) also set in 1970. Rayville Triangulation Station (Reset?) RM 3 However, we did encounter something, that I am unsure of. There is a reference mark 4 and 5 listed in the box score for the original Rayville triangulation station. I just assumed that they were placed at the same time that the surface disk was reset, along with the setting of reference mark 3, which is 1970. We used the box score information, and found RM 4 and RM 5, exactly the distance as indicated in the box score, as there was no other info on the datasheet to reference from.The stamping on reference marks 4 and 5 indicate they were actually placed in 1984......and not 1970. RM 4 RM 5 Do you think it would be correct to assume, that there was some work done on this triangulation station during that time, that may be associated with Rayville Reset CU7543, but somehow got entered onto the datasheet for Rayville CP1754?

Good deal, George. Thanks so much for the help. I am going to try and go over there Friday, and attempt a recovery on it. I want to go while the courthouse is open, and get permission. Would I just send the pics and recovery notes to you, George, since it is unpublished...........or are the DB people going to move the position/observations from the original mark and then publish it on the reset, where I can then submit a recovery report for the reset? I can't tell you how much I appreciate all of this.

Thanks George, Mloser, and Foxtrot for your replies and the help. I'll (almost anxiously ) await to see what the database person says.

Not quite sure if this is the correct forum topic to post this question in, but it is kinda similar. One of the local geocachers found a benchmark disk and asked me about it. It turned out to be a reference mark 3 to a triangulation station called "Rayville". I couldn't find Rayville in the current datasheets, but did find it when doing a destroyed search. Reading the datasheet, especially the report for 1970 which says the surface disk was replaced then, and looking at the RM 3 pic with a 1970 date on it (the RM disk is set into the step of the courthouse), I tend to believe the station may actually be there. Do you think that this station is listed as destroyed due to a data entry error....or am I missing something here. We may gather up a search party this weekend and head over to look for it, if ya think it would be worthwhile after reading the datasheet below. Can a disk marked as destroyed be brought back to life? NOTE - This dataset contains Destroyed Marks Only. 1 National Geodetic Survey, Retrieval Date = MARCH 15, 2010 CP1754 *********************************************************************** CP1754 DESIGNATION - RAYVILLE CP1754 PID - CP1754 CP1754 STATE/COUNTY- LA/RICHLAND CP1754 USGS QUAD - RAYVILLE (1982) CP1754 CP1754 *CURRENT SURVEY CONTROL CP1754 ___________________________________________________________________ CP1754* NAD 83(1992)- 32 28 35.42572(N) 091 45 33.71586(W) ADJUSTED CP1754* NAVD 88 - 24.46 (+/-2cm) 80.2 (feet) VERTCON CP1754 ___________________________________________________________________ CP1754 LAPLACE CORR- -0.98 (seconds) USDV2009 CP1754 GEOID HEIGHT- -25.99 (meters) GEOID09 CP1754 HORZ ORDER - SECOND CP1754 VERT ORDER - THIRD ? (See Below) CP1754 CP1754.The horizontal coordinates were established by classical geodetic methods CP1754.and adjusted by the National Geodetic Survey in January 1993. CP1754 CP1754.The NAVD 88 height was computed by applying the VERTCON shift value to CP1754.the NGVD 29 height (displayed under SUPERSEDED SURVEY CONTROL.) CP1754.The vertical order pertains to the NGVD 29 superseded value. CP1754 CP1754.The Laplace correction was computed from USDV2009 derived deflections. CP1754 CP1754.The geoid height was determined by GEOID09. CP1754 CP1754; North East Units Scale Factor Converg. CP1754;SPC LA N - 219,387.137 1,069,617.342 MT 0.99996217 +0 23 29.7 CP1754;SPC LA N - 719,772.63 3,509,236.23 sFT 0.99996217 +0 23 29.7 CP1754;UTM 15 - 3,593,932.684 616,578.349 MT 0.99976759 +0 39 58.5 CP1754 CP1754! - Elev Factor x Scale Factor = Combined Factor CP1754!SPC LA N - 1.00000024 x 0.99996217 = 0.99996241 CP1754!UTM 15 - 1.00000024 x 0.99976759 = 0.99976783 CP1754 CP1754|---------------------------------------------------------------------| CP1754| PID Reference Object Distance Geod. Az | CP1754| dddmmss.s | CP1754| CY4553 RAYVILLE RM 3 36.000 METERS 00140 | CP1754| CP3040 BM 16 STAKE 2 56.279 METERS 00407 | CP1754| CP1755 RAYVILLE RM 1 77.000 METERS 00601 | CP1754| CP1757 16 CAP 52.631 METERS 01401 | CP1754| CP3042 RAYVILLE MUNICIPAL TANK 415.528 METERS 0514501.7 | CP1754| CS7234 RAYVILLE RM 4 24.314 METERS 06759 | CP1754| CP3039 RAYVILLE COMPRESS CO STACK APPROX. 0.6 KM 0850627.3 | CP1754| CP3044 RAYVILLE UNION COMP CO TANK 476.748 METERS 0881107.6 | CP1754| CY4552 RAYVILLE AZ MK 0995041.7 | CP1754| CP1756 RAYVILLE RM 2 46.232 METERS 10917 | CP1754| CP3045 RAYVILLE GIN RAD STA KER 457 APPROX. 1.3 KM 1741225.4 | CP1754| CS7235 RAYVILLE RM 5 20.357 METERS 25025 | CP1754| CP3136 OAK RIDGE LA PWR AND LT KYL 86 APPROX.11.1 KM 3451553.8 | CP1754| CP3043 RAYVILLE ASTRONOMIC PIER 1931 8.020 METERS 35632 | CP1754|---------------------------------------------------------------------| CP1754 CP1754 SUPERSEDED SURVEY CONTROL CP1754 CP1754 NAD 83(1986)- 32 28 35.43781(N) 091 45 33.70846(W) AD( ) 2 CP1754 NAD 27 - 32 28 34.92700(N) 091 45 33.25800(W) AD( ) 2 CP1754 NGVD 29 (07/19/86) 24.49 (m) 80.3 (f) LEVELING 3 CP1754 CP1754.Superseded values are not recommended for survey control. CP1754.NGS no longer adjusts projects to the NAD 27 or NGVD 29 datums. CP1754.See file dsdata.txt to determine how the superseded data were derived. CP1754 CP1754_U.S. NATIONAL GRID SPATIAL ADDRESS: 15SXR1657893932(NAD 83) CP1754_MARKER: DD = SURVEY DISK CP1754_SETTING: 30 = SET IN A LIGHT STRUCTURE CP1754_SP_SET: CONCRETE BLOCK CP1754_STABILITY: D = MARK OF QUESTIONABLE OR UNKNOWN STABILITY CP1754 CP1754 HISTORY - Date Condition Report By CP1754 HISTORY - 1931 MONUMENTED CGS CP1754 HISTORY - 1934 GOOD DOD CP1754 HISTORY - 1936 GOOD LAGS CP1754 HISTORY - 1956 SEE DESCRIPTION USGS CP1754 HISTORY - 1966 SEE DESCRIPTION CGS CP1754 HISTORY - 1966 MARK NOT FOUND CGS CP1754 HISTORY - 1970 DESTROYED NGS CP1754 CP1754 STATION DESCRIPTION CP1754 CP1754'DESCRIBED BY COAST AND GEODETIC SURVEY 1931 (PAS) CP1754'STATION IS IN THE SW CORNER OF THE COURTHOUSE SQUARE AT RAYVILLE, CP1754'33.7 METERS (111 FEET) S 1/2 W OF SW CORNER OF COURTHOUSE, 13.3 CP1754'METERS (44 FEET) N OF N CURB OF MADALINE STREET, 47.2 METERS CP1754'(155 FEET) W OF W CURB OF JULIA STREET, AND 8.02 METERS (26.3 CP1754'FEET) S OF A SMALL BRICK ASTRONOMICAL PIER. CP1754' CP1754'SURFACE, UNDERGROUND, AND REFERENCE MARK NO. 1 ARE STANDARD CP1754'BRONZE DISKS SET IN CONCRETE. CP1754' CP1754'REFERENCE MARK NO. 1 IS 26.1 METERS (86 FEET) N OF NW CORNER CP1754'OF COURTHOUSE, 9.9 METERS (32 FEET) W OF A DRIVEWAY, AND CP1754'77.0 METERS (253 FEET) FROM STATION N 6 DEG 01 MIN E. CP1754' CP1754'REFERENCE MARK NO. 2 IS A STANDARD DISK SET IN THE SIDEWALK CP1754'IN SE CORNER OF SQUARE, 2.1 METERS (7 FEET) N AND 2.3 METERS CP1754'(8 FEET) W OF CURB LINE, AND 46.28 METERS (151.8 FEET) FROM CP1754'STATION S 70 DEG 43 MIN E. THE ASTRONOMICAL PIER CP1754'REFERRED TO ABOVE IS N 3 DEG 28 MIN W. CP1754 CP1754 STATION RECOVERY (1934) CP1754 CP1754'RECOVERY NOTE BY US DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE 1934 CP1754'IN RAYVILLE. CP1754'P.B.M. TRI. RAYVILLE IS A BRONZE DISC SET IN A CONCRETE BLOCK LOCATED CP1754'IN RAYVILLE, RICHLAND PARISH, LOUISIANA. IN RICHLAND PARISH CP1754'COURTHOUSE YARD. 33.7 METERS SOUTHWEST OF THE SOUTHWEST CORNER OF THE CP1754'COURTHOUSE. 13.3 METERS NORTH OF THE NORTH CURB OF MADALINE STREET. CP1754'47.2 METERS WEST OF THE WEST CURB OF JULIA STREET AND IS 8.0 METERS CP1754'SOUTH OF A SMALL BRICK PIER. CP1754 CP1754 STATION RECOVERY (1936) CP1754 CP1754'RECOVERY NOTE BY LOUISIANA GEODETIC SURVEY 1936 CP1754'STATION RECOVERED AS DESCRIBED. ORIGINAL DESCRIPTION ADEQUATE. CP1754 CP1754 STATION RECOVERY (1956) CP1754 CP1754'RECOVERY NOTE BY US GEOLOGICAL SURVEY 1956 CP1754'STATION FOUND, BUT IT HAS BEEN HIT AND KNOCKED OVER ON ITS SIDE. CP1754'NO ATTEMPT WAS MADE TO DIG UP NEW SODDED LAWN AND RECOVER CP1754'UNDERGROUND MARK. A NEW COURTHOUSE HAS BEEN BUILT AND THE LAWN CP1754'HAS BEEN WORKED OVER AND RESODDED. CP1754' CP1754'REFERENCE MARK 1 WAS NOT FOUND. CP1754' CP1754'REFERENCE MARK WAS RECOVERED IN GOOD CONDITION. CP1754' CP1754'THE ASTRONOMICAL PIER HAS BEEN DESTROYED. CP1754 CP1754 STATION RECOVERY (1966) CP1754 CP1754'RECOVERY NOTE BY COAST AND GEODETIC SURVEY 1966 (CND) CP1754'THE STATION MARK WAS DESTROYED DURING THE CONSTRUCTION OF A NEW CP1754'COURTHOUSE AT RAYVILLE IN 1949-50 ACCORDING TO A REPORT FROM CP1754'THE JANITOR OF THE COURTHOUSE. CP1754' CP1754'R.M. 1 WAS SEARCHED FOR BUT NOT RECOVERED. SAME REPORT FROM CP1754'JANITOR OF COURTHOUSE AS SHOWN FOR THE STATION MARK. CP1754' CP1754'R.M. 2, STAMPED RAYVILLE NO 2 1931, IS AT RAYVILLE, IN SECTION CP1754'9, T 17 N, R 7 E, 111 FEET SOUTHEAST OF THE SOUTHEAST CORNER CP1754'OF THE COURTHOUSE, AT THE NORTHWEST CORNER OF THE INTERSECTION CP1754'OF WEST MADELING AND SOUTH JULIA STREETS, 407 FEET SOUTH OF THE CP1754'SOUTH RAIL OF THE ILLINOIS CENTRAL RAILROAD, SET IN THE TOP CP1754'OF THE WEST EDGE OF A SIDEWALK, 7 FEET WEST OF THE WEST CONCRETE CP1754'CURB OF SOUTH JULIA STREET, 6-1/2 FEET NORTH OF THE NORTH CP1754'CONCRETE CURB OF WEST MADELING STREET, 0.6 FOOT EAST OF THE CP1754'WEST EDGE OF THE SIDEWALK, AND ABOUT 1/2 FOOT ABOVE THE LEVEL CP1754'OF THE STREETS. CP1754 CP1754 STATION RECOVERY (1966) CP1754 CP1754'RECOVERY NOTE BY COAST AND GEODETIC SURVEY 1966 CP1754'MARK NOT FOUND. CP1754 CP1754 STATION RECOVERY (1970) CP1754 CP1754'RECOVERY NOTE BY NATIONAL GEODETIC SURVEY 1970 (WWS) CP1754'THE STATION IS LOCATED IN THE SOUTHWEST CORNER OF THE COURTHOUSE CP1754'LAWN IN RAYVILLE, LOUISIANA. CP1754' CP1754'THE STATION SURFACE MARK WAS DESTROYED. THE UNDERGROUND CP1754'STATION MARK WAS RECOVERED AND FOUND IN GOOD CONDITION AND CP1754'A NEW SURFACE DISK WAS ESTABLISHED AT THIS DATE.

Thanks everyone for the replies and help. I always know that I can count on ya.

Yes, that is the biggest stumbling block, to actually see if a log is bogus, or just in error. We had someone come thru our area several years back, logging all kind of easy intersection stations. Problem is, they were logging smoke stacks from factories that had been demolished, water towers that have been gone for decades, and even a radio tower that had collapsed many years prior. We got a laugh from it, and decided it was probably just someone trying to run their benchmark numbers up, just like some do with geocaching. Couldn't see how they could honestly mistake that many intersection stations, that aren't there........especially since there were no pictures with any of the logs.

I am wondering if you might have inadvertently mixed up your databases? There is no online access to the USGS database. The database we all know and love is the NGS (or, at one time, USC&GS) database. There are many, many USGS disks that are not in the NGS database. Yes, I did mix it up and edited the post, but not before you caught me. I did not know that there were a lot of USGS disks not in the NGS database. That's why I always ask the experts here.

Howdy everyone. One of my benchmarking buddies ran across something Saturday, and asked me about it. I don't have a correct answer for him that I would be confident in, but figured ya would. All of my answers would be guesses at best. He found a benchmark TT22Y below by accident, just seeing the witness post: When he went to look it up in the database, it's not there (or if it is, we can't seem to locate it), however DL0254/TT21Y about 3 miles down the road is. I was just guessing that they placed TT22Y at the same time as TT21Y, but just didn't catalog it, or it has been omitted from the database due to a erroneous destroyed report (or similar). I do note that the disk also says "cooperation with the state", so an Arkansas agency may have been responsible for it all. Is this something ya see (or have seen) with other USGS disks? I know there are lots of benchmarks that are not in the NGS database, but I figured most of the actual USGS stamped disks would be. Can you help further our benchmark education? Thanks

We just had one last Sunday, where it was really one of those "better to be lucky than good" things. We were searching for AZ Mark 2 (CQ3497) to the triangulation station Ticheli (CQ2721). AZ Mark 2 has it's own designation in the NGS database, which evidently has been bluebooked since gc.com uploaded their database, because gc.com doesn't have it listed. Anyhow, we arrived at the site, and stuck a ground probe down in the wrong place (kinda just sticking the probe in the ground to hold it out of the way), but felt like we hit concrete. We then kept probing around and kept hitting a fairly wide base of concrete, so it seemed.......still away from where we actually were supposed to look for the disk. Once we dug down, the concrete didn't look correct, and we finally realized it was the setting laying on it's side. We dug to the end of it, lo and behold, there was the disk still set in it. We probably never would have found it, if we had looked in the correct position first. It being on it's side like it was, the metal detector wouldn't have found it either. We did find part of the original concrete setting way down in the ground where it was supposed to be. Our thinking is some kind of machinery sheared the concrete, and set the top part away from the bottom part. When Lady Luck shines on you like that, then it has to be a good day benchmarking. BTW, I really enjoy reading and looking at everyone's benchmarking experiences. I wish we had some of the historical or significant ones nearby like I am seeing ya post.

The USGS has approximated the geographic center of each state. Here is a good link from them, and you may have to scroll down some to see the states geographic centers (approximate). http://egsc.usgs.gov/isb/pubs/booklets/elv...aphic%20Centers

I was reading the newspaper this morning, and there was a story (below) that said the State of LA has appropriated funds to restore this monument (and it's corresponding benchmark). However, it states they plan to put a fence around the monument, so that may make it harder to get to the benchmark in the step of the monument. For most of its 78 years among the secluded woods of Union Parish, a monument belonging to Louisiana and Arkansas has stood on the states' borderline and in a limbo of mutual neglect. In the coming months, Louisiana state officials have plans to restore the memorial long lost to memory. State Sen. Mike Walsworth, R-West Monroe, recently announced the Office of State Parks will dedicate around $10,000 to renovate the Dual State monument, a 10-foot-long stone memorial on Monument Road, about one mile northwest of Oakland. In 1931, George Washington Donaghey, a former Arkansas governor born in Louisiana, donated the borderlands of his childhood home to be used as a park to show his kinship to both states. He imagined a 49-acre park on the Louisiana-Arkansas state line, commemorating a 100-year anniversary of the drawing of their borders. Of the former governor's plans, only a 10-foot-long stone monument that straddles Louisiana and Arkansas remains. Donaghey's ambitions are reflected in the sides of the stone, which bear intricate bas-relief carvings depicting the modes of transportation in 1831 and 1931 and include a reference to Huey P. Long, whom Donaghey admired for his education reforms. The Arkansas Historic Preservation Program cites the monument as one of the first examples of Art Deco in the state. The memorial was rediscovered in 1975 when state Rep. Louise Johnson introduced an act to cede part of the property to the state parks system. Edwin Edwards, governor at the time, signed the act and held a rededication ceremony at the site. Since that time, chunks of the monument have been lost. Vandals have spray-painted over Donaghey's inscriptions of progress and interstate fellowship. Walsworth said around $10,000 has been set aside to power wash and grind out the graffitti and to repair the cracks in the granite, slate and inscription. "We might need to repair the concrete around the monument," Walsworth said. "Then at the end, we're going to put some type of water proofer to seal it, and the last thing is to put a wrought iron fence around it." "Its at the state line, in the middle of east and west," Walsworth said. "It's a rarity, especially in a rural part of northeastern Louisiana to see such a beautiful monument." James Dispenza, a Farmerville resident who has tried to raise interest in repairing the monument, said the announcement by the senator and state parks came as welcome news. "It's been too long for a monument like that to be whittled away in time," Dispenza said. "I know I'd love to see it redone and have it rededicated on its birthday, which would be coming up in July." With the repair contract already awarded and work expected to finish in 30 to 60 days, Johnson said the office of state parks hopes to do just that

Hmmm, it seems my original post didn't upload with the forum title. Let see if I can add this one. I received the first issue of a new print magazine called FTF Geocacher yesterday. They had a brief article in it about benchmarking. It just briefly told some basic things about vertical and horizontal points, but added to look on the benchmarking section of gc.com for more information. I didn't catch the name of who contributed the article. Depending on the circulation of this magazine, we may see some increase in interest in the benchmarking forums.

NGS Surveyor informed me of a neat one (at least to me) in New Orleans, that I got to visit last December. I have never seen one like this. It's PID is AU1063, just sitting out in one of the parks there. The actual bm is a copper bolt in the top of the monument.

+1, Guilty as charged

Woo-hoo, I see where the day of practice driving with my then 15 year old daughter showed up for the two new parishes in Louisiana. Thanks Jim BTW, she has since turned 16 and gotten her license.

Thanks Foxtrot Xray, and Merry Christmas to you and everyone else here too.

I want to thank Tillamurphs and Z15 for the help, and apologize for it taking so long to acknowledge it. Life sure has gotten in my way here lately. Thanks so much. I have already forwarded the info to the others in our local benchmarking gang. Again, I am sorry that I didn't respond sooner.

Hopefully, we can color in a few more parishes for LA on the next update. Thanks for the effort you put into this, Jim.

Hi Everyone, while I was out letting the 15 year old daughter gain driving experience today (and losing more hair in the process), we ran across some kind of marker encased in concrete near benchmark BW2018. I had never seen this before and took some pics of it, and included them in my geocaching log for BW2018. I couldn't wait to get back and ask the experts here. Can ya help educate me and identify what this marker is? Thanks Bobby

ROF Thanks, that has started my day off good.

Ok, we ran back by ANDERSON yesterday evening. We took measurements the best we could, trying to keep everything level. I took the measurements using the metric side of the tape, and now see where I should have used the foot side, because that is how everyone has it figured. We did find the station, at 24 inches below the surface. With all the flooding we have had, the water table was at 22 inches below the surface here. The hole would fill up with muddy water before we could dip it out enough to take a good pic. We tried stuffing rags, and even one of our shirts to stop the infiltration long enough to snap a pic, but wasn't successful enough. I posted a pic where you can see part of the disk but not enough to read it. You can make out the triangle on it. Oh, we were so close. We'll be going back when the water table drops, which may be next year. The approximate measurements I got, are as follows From ANDERSON to RM2 : 32.59 meters From RM1 to RM2 : 34.35 meters I didn't take a compass with me, as I wasn't really even going to look for ANDERSON but we probed and found it, and everybody here knows we were going to dig it up then. It really didn't line up with the arrow from RM1 just by sighting it. The distance was dead on, but it just seemed the direction wasn't. We swang a good arc with the tape measure and it was found a little further to the left side of the arc than I thought it should be. I'm not going to say that the box score info was incorrect, but will go back and see if the bearings are correct, now that I know where the station is. RM2 did line up good, just by sighting it. Maybe the numbers above will disprove my observations. Anyhow, I posted some pics on the gc webpage, that may help. It was very overcast at that time, but not raining. http://www.geocaching.com/mark/details.aspx?PID=CQ2753