kayakbird

I know that I have already "Blundered" one of my recent recoveries because I didn't delete my remarks prior to back arrowing for another report. Sent an email on that one; in which I also asked about the many, many marks that I have found on the wrong county lists here in Montana - particularly International Boundary Monuments. Anyone else running across these types of errors in the DATASHEET? ML

I know that I have already "Blundered" one of my recent recoveries because I didn't delete my remarks prior to back arrowing for another report. Sent an email on that one; in which I also asked about the many, many marks that I have found on the wrong county lists here in Montana - particularly International Boundary Monuments. Anyone else running across these types of errors in the DATASHEET? ML

Couldn't resist, Got my first TALLYHO today on one of the unused (NONPID) points listed for Gallatin Co, Montana in the 1907 PRECISE LEVEL NET (see SP PUB #18 link in message 21 in the 'Define Bolt' forum here. A square chiseled hole was found in the top of the River Right, downstream wing wall, southeast abutment of the RR Bridge over Bozeman Creek. 45 41 30.3, 111 01 46.6. This corner is breakng out with the crack running along the SE side of the mark. Note the chisel marks in one of the photo's that I attached to nearby QX0226. Hope they show in the reduction - haven't figured out much editing yet. And I may be jumping the gun here; didn't have Note 5 below, so wasn't looking for and didn't see any lettering. Was the lettering always done? It is only three miles away, on the way to skiing, so another stop tomorrow. my brackets: [R4.-At Bozeman, Gallatin County, Mont., about 0.2 mile northwest of the Northern Pacific Railway depot, 16 meters north of the eighth telegraph pole northwest of the depot; about 2 meters northeast of the railway track; in the southeast concrete abutment of a railroad bridge; in the upper horizontal surface at the north corner; 0.3 meter from the northeast edgE, 0.3 meter from the northwest edge about on a level with the base of the rail. NOTE 5 p.162-166 SP PUB #18.] {NOTE 5.-This type of bench mark is the bottom of a hole in a horizontal surface, 25 millimeters square, 4 milIimetersdeep, lettered “U. S. B. M.} At the Gallatin Co Museum I got a RR map showing the numerous tracks and most of the named sidings that criss-crossed the valley in about 1925. Need to look for M4 at Cental Park, Q4 at Storey (Story on map) and U4 at Chestnut. I know that this thread might end up in Waymarking; but I'm wondering how many of these PRECISE LEVEL NET points did not get PIDs and how many of those might actually still be out there. Anyone else interested in working on a NONPID list of these points? Gotta do something. No chance of getting ALL PIDs in Gallatin Co, especially when I keep finding Yellowstone Co longitudes in the Gallatin Co DATASHEET: QV0279. ML

I just started filling out mark recoveries, but have not been adding my HH2 Lat/Long. Are there any standard guide lines for close enough to the DATASHEET? If I remember my military aviation math correctly, one N/S second is about 100 feet. I'm thinking that 0.5" is close enough. Maybe 2.0" should be mentioned in the recovery notes; and something way off emailed to NGS. ML

My blunder. The "spooky place" in Paul's post #13 still stands. Now for a new "confusion" one that I stumbled across while randomly map pinning TOPO with possible winter accessible points. Is there anyone working Yellowstone Co, Montana who could run out to Broadview and get the LAT/LONG for AI3752 R 537 RESET 1999 . The current DATASHEET places it in Madison County at the same coords as AI3758 R 574 RESET 1998. It should be at RV0681 R 537 1980 which it apparently replaced. Exerpts from current DATASHEET retrieved today. AI3752* NAD 83(1986)- 45 35 00. (N) 111 42 16. (W) SCALED AI3752_STAMPING: R 537 RESET 1999 RV0681* NAD 83(1986)- 46 07 46. (N) 108 53 14. (W) SCALED RV0681_STAMPING: R 537 1980 AI3758* NAD 83(1986)- 45 35 00. (N) 111 42 16. (W) SCALED AI3758_STAMPING: R 574 RESET 1998 There are several marks in that immediate area. Maybe I'll try for them on my next visit to my son in Roundup.ML

PapaBear, Thanks for the note you posted to QX0208 pertaining to Special Pub #18. Quite a number of the Butte to Huntley run do have PID's, but at least one ( R 4 0.2 mi NW of Bozeman RR Depot) does not. I believe the 1907 bridge over Bozeman Creek is still there. I'll check it out when the snow settles a bit. I think I feel a new thread coming on. Sp. Pub.#18 must have mystery marks all over the nation! I just posted some poor quality photos to the QX0208 log. I'll try to figure out all my new Nikon D40 editing features before I post photos to my five other successfully recovered, previously "NOT FOUND", in this immediate area. And maybe a couple more highly suspect ones when green grass arrives. ML

Final Report QX0208 O4 1907 bolt put this one to bed I have to back-paddle a bit and apologize to the 1958 recovery crew for their street name confusion in the description of QX0208. Likely their source maps showed NP Avenue. A gentleman at the barbershop said that the street in question has been Main Street for as many of his 76 years as he can remember. A visit to the Belgrade City Hall showed Pacific Avenue - not Northern Pacific Ave - on a 1969 map. Measurements taken: bottom of sandstone window sill down to top of concrete cap 1.9 ft. bottom of sandstone window sill down to sidewalk 3.6 ft' concrete cap/buttress at front door steps 1.65ft high, 0.6ft wide. slightly more that three brick courses are covered by this cap. exposed sandstone block behind cap at front door 0.9 wide by 0.7 high. estimated width of stone foundation covered by concrete cap 0.2 to 0.3 ft. estimated higher depth of newer concrete sidewalk since the 1920s photos showed two full sandstone block foundation courses 1.0 - 1.2 feet. Note: 1907 Precise Level run (Special Publication #18) states that the mark was placed in the foundation. Conclusions: Based on the deeper sidewalk and uncertainty if all measurements were taken from the corner in meters or feet, I have no idea if the existing 1/4 in threaded bolt is anywhere near the mark. I do believe that this is the one and only Belgrade State Bank building and that the mark is there in the sandstone block foundation under the concrete cap. It may not be found but is is not "DESTROYED". Photos coming soon - maybe!! Any reason I should not file a "NOT FOUND" report to NGS? ML

Papa-Bear-NYC, Still of the conclusion that is is NOT FOUND, but not DESTROYRD either. I came up with a couple more tidbits of information today and hope to get a final after action report put together tomorrow (birding, benchmarking & skiing permitting). To clarify one point: if you are standing in the intersection of Main and Broadway with your back to the former Northern Pacific mainline tracks and looking down Broadway, facing to the Northeast, the Belgrade State Bank Building is the first building along Broadway on your right, with its main entrance on Main St (aka Pacific St on the 1969 city map!!). The Sanborn fire maps show a bank building there in 1907, 1912 and 1941/1946. Bit of sun today, no snow and 25F - up from 19 at sunset. Thanks ML

InfernoOSU, I'm a newbie also and asked the same question not long ago. See "Solid Brass Found - not listed" a few lines down in this forum. In your next post include Lat/Long and any stamped names or numbers. Maybe someone will come up with a PID for them and you can log them in. If no PID you can enter them in the Waymaking list. Instructions/rules are linked somewhere here. Basically you need photos and coordinates. Good Luck. ML

Matt, Papa-Bear, Paul & all, How do you know where to look for all that good "old" stuff? I think that I just about got it figured out. In chronological order: 1902 Bank built at the NE corner of Broadway and Northern Pacific Ave 1907 Monumented with a bolt (QX0208 O4). Same crew monumented QX0204 N4 and QX0214 P4 (logged 12 Dec 2008). 1910 Photo from a high building two or three hundred meters SW clearly show the brick bank building that still stands today. 1920 Photo from the SW corner of Broadway and NP Ave shows a quarried sandstone foundation about 0.35 M high. Top of sandstone is 12 brick courses below the windowsill. 1933 Belgrade city map shows an unnamed street platted SW of the NPRR mainline. An updated 1914 Sanborn Fire Map shows this unnamed street as Northern Pacific Av. S. 1948 News paper article with a photo looking NW along what is referred to as "Main Street" shows the bank building. 1958 NGS "GOOD" recovery "----AT THE EAST CORNER OF THE INTERSECTION OF BROADWAY AND NORTHERN PACIFIC AVENUE---". DATASHEET should have been corrected to read "Main Street". 1970's Building renovated and bank name changed to Montana Bank of Belgrade. 1980 City map shows Main Street with Northern Pacific Avenue SW of the tracks. 1981 Bank now the Valley Bank of Belgrade. 1982 NGS Recovery "THERE IS A NEW BUILDING AT THIS LOCATION AND THE MARK SHOULD BE CONSIDERED DESTROYED." This crew had lots of things working against them. 1984 NGS Recovery "MARK NOT FOUND." 2008 The building is still there (photo's to be posted soon, MAYBE). The concrete that I took to be the original foundation is likely a three or four inch thick cap/buttress; maybe placed during the 70's renovation. I believe that the visible"BOLT " was the renovators attempt to perpetuate the mark; which I think is still under there - NOT DESTROYED. I will continue to attempt to verify the date of the formal street name change and when and how much concrete was added to the foundation. In reference to another topic in this forum: Would a good metal detector find it? ML

ALL In researching the real northernmost mark INSIDE Montana I have run across two "RENEWED" Boundary Monuments. TL0782, renewed in 2005 (the photo shows "RENEWED 2005" stamped in the new concrete base), was logged as not found. TL0786, renewed in 2001 was logged as found. Neither current NGS DATASHEET indicates this change - last recovery was in 1975. Does RENEWED equate to RESET in International Boundary Commission terminology? ML

Paul, Thanks for the help & encouragement. I had looked at the flag on grain elevator picture. Neat! Its map pin is a bit off. It should be a few blocks SE at 45 46 25.56 111 10 19.84 where Main Street has to jog around it. Note the shadow of the tall white building there. From the top of that grain elevator I do not believe that you can see the Belgrade State Bank that opened with $10,000 in 1906. Google Earth has its tack pin © at 37 47 42.66 90 52 36 33. Not sure if that map pin is exactly right either. In this game it is sure easy to let sneaky little details and clues slip right past! ML

Stripemark, Don't people look at previous logs/photos? So far, as a newbie, I want to check on the previous logs of "MY" bench mark and I expect that I will monitor future activity If I'm still snowbound tomorrow I'll check myself; but do those GLO's that are not GL1435 have PID's? ML

Paul, Thanks a lot for the Sanborn Fire Maps tip. I was able to find a free link for the Montana files. See below Others, Thanks for the great photo's. Now I know what most "real" ones look like. Define "BOLT" New "FORUM" topic 1915 19 DEC 08 info added 22 Dec 08: from the Dec,1907, Sheet 2 Sanborn Map The present Main Street was then called "Northern Pacific Avenue". No streets are shown SW of the tracks. The Northern Pacific RR Depot is shown on the NE side of the tracks, just easterly of Kennedy St. Going NE along Kennedy or Broadway there is an alley at mid-block, then Central and Park Avenues; which correlated to todays streets. Broadway is one block NW of Kennedy, with a bank shown on the NE corner of Northern Pacific and Broadway. Another map in the files dated Aug. 1912-Sept. 1941, Sheet 4 still has a bank on the NE corner of Broadway, But that street is now "Northern Pacific Av. N." The "N." appears to be a different font. Sheet 1 shows the the development along Kennedy and Broadway SW of the NPRR mainline. This map section truncates on the north at "Northern Pacific Av. S". Sidings and the mainline of the Chicago Milwaukee & Puget Sound RR - Gallatin Valley Branch and one siding of the NPRR are shown in Gallatin Valley Milling Co's flour mill area, but the NPRR mainline is off the drawing to the north. Hopefully research tomorrow at the Gallatin Historical Museum will determine when Northern Pacific Av. N. had a name change to Main street. I'm holding to my conclusion that I have the correct building. After the "GOOD" recovery in 1958, I do not think that the building would have been razed and then rebuilt with rough quarried sandstone window sills. I know, get a camera! (I am looking at newspaper ads). ML

Paul, Nice shot! I'll have to take another look for that "spooky place", but I think that you can mark it "DESTROYED". ML

Papa-Bear-NYC, OK, 94 meters. Should have picked up on that from being somewhat familiar with the ground. Maybe in the original description they were trying to say that the train station was at Davis X Northern Pacific. Can't wait to get into the Sanborn maps. -4F ML

Paul & mloser, thanks for your time on my little project. I think that BM 4679 is QX0225. Its elevation in the DS is given as 4772.47. I think the difference there correlates to a recent geoid correction of elevations in this area - if direction of correction is correct. Thanks, ML

Paul, I'll look for those Sanborn Maps. Thanks Matt, I think that the 94 feet north of the rail will check out. Wonder why the 1958 team did not use that part of the description? The street/sidewalk may have been built up the missing 14 inches. Thanks Too cold to ski, so I may as well research this. Might have to edit my LOGIN, but thats OK. Thanks, Thanks, ML

All, Continuing to play with Montana's extremes (not counting the -6F we have right now with a Christmas Bird Count to do tomorrow) I have found that many of the many Boundary Monuments along the 49th Parallel are listed in the wrong county. I don't suppose that this will have a very high priority, but I will let NGS know. ML

Thanks Papa-Bear, I'll work on finding old maps. Any way to come up with these UNK monumented dates. I banked there 25 years ago. Existing bolt is set in a solid concrete foundation, not the brick. Train station was on the main street side of the tracks and the main business district was on the far (NE) side of Main Street. I am confidant that the 1958 description is accurate, except for the street name, and leads to this building; but I always have learned a lot from my mistakes.ML

Hi All, I first looked at this one a few days ago and went back today to get some local information on the building and street names. QX0208* NAD 83(1986)- 45 46 32. (N) 111 10 36. (W) SCALED QX0208_MARKER: B = BOLT QX0208_SETTING: 36 = BUILDING QX0208_STABILITY: B = PROBABLY HOLD POSITION/ELEVATION WELL QX0208 QX0208 HISTORY - Date Condition Recov. By QX0208 HISTORY - UNK MONUMENTED CGS QX0208 HISTORY - 1958 GOOD NGS QX0208 HISTORY - 1982 MARK NOT FOUND NGS QX0208 HISTORY - 1984 MARK NOT FOUND USGS QX0208 QX0208 STATION DESCRIPTION QX0208 QX0208''DESCRIBED BY NATIONAL GEODETIC SURVEY 1958 QX0208''IN BELGRADE. QX0208''AT BELGRADE, ABOUT 1 BLOCK NORTH AND THENCE 1 BLOCK WEST OF THE QX0208''STATION, AT THE EAST CORNER OF THE INTERSECTION OF BROADWAY AND QX0208''NORTHERN PACIFIC AVENUE, IN SECTION 1, T 1 S, R 4 E, AT THE BELGRADE QX0208''STATE BANK BUILDING, SET VERTICALLY IN THE SOUTHWEST FACE OF THE QX0208''BUILDING, 1 FOOT SOUTHEAST OF THE WEST CORNER OF THE BUILDING, AND 6 QX0208''INCHES ABOVE THE SIDEWALK. QX0208 QX0208 STATION RECOVERY (1982) QX0208 QX0208''RECOVERY NOTE BY NATIONAL GEODETIC SURVEY 1982 QX0208''THERE IS A NEW BUILDING AT THIS LOCATION AND THE MARK SHOULD BE QX0208''CONSIDERED DESTROYED. QX0208 QX0208 STATION RECOVERY (1984) QX0208 QX0208''RECOVERY NOTE BY US GEOLOGICAL SURVEY 1984 QX0208''MARK NOT FOUND. what I found at N 45° 46.570 W 111° 10.628 The exterior brick has been sand blasted and the interior renovated but the old Belgrade State Bank Building still stands (as identified by the Belgrade C of C office manager from their building directly across the street). It is on the corner of Broadway and Main (not Northern Pacific Ave) which is about the "block north and block west from former location of the train station. 1.3 feet east of the corner of the concrete foundation and 0.50' above the sidewalk, the threaded end of a 1/4 bolt protrudes 0.15' and is bent down. Can this be the "real" MARK, or should it be the square head of a larger bolt? Thanks, ML

and here is another one: THE REAL EASTERN MOST MONTANA MARK SP0370 DESIGNATION - BOUNDARY MON MT ND ECC SP0370 PID - SP0370 SP0370 STATE/COUNTY- MT/WIBAUX SP0370 USGS QUAD - ODLAND DAM NE (1974) SP0370 SP0370 *CURRENT SURVEY CONTROL SP0370 ___________________________________________________________________ SP0370* NAD 83(1996)- 47 12 41.40243(N) 104 02 41.64177(W) ADJUSTED SP0370* NAVD 88 - 818.4 (meters) 2685. (feet) VERTCON ERROR - THIS LONGITUDE IS IN NORTH DAKOTA TH0870 DESIGNATION - BOUNDARY MON 585 CD US TH0870 PID - TH0870 TH0870 STATE/COUNTY- MT/SHERIDAN should be ND/DIVIDE TH0870 USGS QUAD - SKJERMO LAKE (1983) TH0870 TH0870 *CURRENT SURVEY CONTROL TH0870 ___________________________________________________________________ TH0870* NAD 83(1996)- 48 59 59.37146(N) 104 00 00.87816(W) ADJUSTED TH0870* NAVD 88 - 653. (meters) 2142. (feet) SCALED TH0870|---------------------------------------------------------------------| TH0870| PID Reference Object Distance Geod. Az | TH0870| dddmmss.s | TH0870| TG1977 BOUNDARY MON 585 ECC 75.264 METERS 15347 | TH0870| TH0750 BOUNDARY MON 584 CD US APPROX. 1.3 KM 2700839.3 | TH0870|---------------------------------------------------------------------| WESTERN MOST BOUNDARY MONUMENT IN NORTH DAKOTA TH0750 DESIGNATION - BOUNDARY MON 584 CD US TH0750 PID - TH0750 TH0750 STATE/COUNTY- ND/DIVIDE TH0750 USGS QUAD - WESTBY NORTH (1983) TH0750 TH0750 *CURRENT SURVEY CONTROL TH0750 ___________________________________________________________________ TH0750* NAD 83(2007)- 48 59 59.46763(N) 104 01 02.82256(W) ADJUSTED TH0750* NAVD 88 - 676.9 (meters) 2221. (feet) GPS OBS Note: In the full DATASHEET the two North Dakota marks use the correct bearing for their "REFERENCE OBJECT". I will send NGS a correction. Does "holoscenes.com" take corrections? If it stays cold & snowy, I'll work on the true Montana north mark this afternoon.ML

Thanks mloser QX0214 (P4) is on the bridge in mile 146. I believe that you are right that the 146 in the description for QX0471 should be 143. There is another bridge about 500 M back to the southeast that has possibilities. Too much snow and frozen dirt now. ML

PLSS corners, HES #45, Cochise Co, Arizona has several nice etched stones that can be seen from a public road or NF property. ML

All, Don't think that I will have to worry about RR Bulls if I go after this one; but the RCMP might object. On Montana's extreme list as 'Northern Most". Who can a guy trust any more! ML TJ0796''STATION MARK--A BRONZE DISK MARKED---U.S. AND C.B. SURVEY---SET IN A TJ0796''CONCRETE PIER NEARLY FLUSH WITH THE GROUND. TJ0796 DESIGNATION - SLIM TJ0796 PID - TJ0796 TJ0796 STATE/COUNTY- MT/VALLEY TJ0796_MARKER: DD = SURVEY DISK TJ0796_SETTING: 7 = SET IN TOP OF CONCRETE MONUMENT TJ0796_STABILITY: C = MAY HOLD, BUT OF TYPE COMMONLY SUBJECT TO TJ0796+STABILITY: SURFACE MOTION TJ0796 TJ0796 HISTORY - Date Condition Recov. By TJ0796 HISTORY - 1910 MONUMENTED IBC TJ0796 TJ0796 STATION DESCRIPTION TJ0796 TJ0796''DESCRIBED BY INTERNATIONAL BOUNDARY COMMISSION 1910 (CHS) TJ0796''ABOUT 3 MILES NORTH OF INTERNATIONAL BOUNDARY MONUMENT 515, IN SE 1/4 TJ0796''SECTION 23, TOWNSHIP 1, RANGE 2 W, THIRD MERIDIAN, ABOUT 100 METERS TJ0796''FROM THE SOUTH BOUNDARY AND 300 METERS FROM THE EAST BOUNDARY OF THE TJ0796''SECTION. THE STATION IS ON THE PLATEAU BETWEEN COAL AND LOST CHILD TJ0796''CREEKS. TJ0796''