Spoo

Here is another: Police criticize scavenger hunt Tuesday, February 6, 2007 PORTSMOUTH, N.H. (AP) - Police aren't fans of a pastime involving a high tech navigation device. The department is sending out a message against GPS scavenger hunts after two reports of suspicious packages turned out to be prizes left for game participants. The most recent incident was Sunday, when Portsmouth police were called to a supermarket to examine a suspicious package stuck to an outdoor electrical panel. The metallic case duct taped to the panel turned out to be a prize for players in a GPS scavenger hunt. In November, police responded to a similar call when someone spotted a suspicious package stuck to the base of the Piscataqua River bridge. Police say attaching suspicious items to private property, bridges, electrical panels causes public alarm and can be punished as trespassing, disorderly conduct and worse if a building is forced to evacuate.

Merry Christmas to all of you and yours. My Best Regards to all. Spoo

One day a couple of years ago, I was digging around looking for an Azimuth Mark on the road side of a large field. I was about 3 feet lower then the road. I did have the owners permission. I heard a car and looked up. There sat a County Sheriff staring down at me. I proceeded to stand up out of the ditch and then realized I had my 13 inch 'T' handled probe in one hand and my entrenching tool in the other. "You have a problem?" he asked. "No", thinking these were not good objects to confront an Officer of the Law with.......and what the hell was I doing with them anyways. "OK". He drove off. This incident did not go without further trouble. I proceeded to contract my first and only case of poison ivy from this little episode.

Allow me my 2 cents worth...... Monel is a 'refractory' metal.....as is Inconel. That is; it has a very low co-efficient of expansion or contraction when exposed to extreme temperatures, especially at high temps found in the steel industry or in automotive catalytic converters. As such, it can be trusted not to move with temp extremes. As pointed out here already, due to its high nickel content, it is also impervious to rust and corrosion. Of course, it far exceeds the places (concrete posts, steel RR works, etc) it may be mounted. It makes perfect sense to use them as Bench Marks from a stability and longevity aspect.

I think I have listed these proud finds of mine before but will go ahead again. All of these were mountain top marks. PF1145 is a Brass Pin from 1853. OC2669is a controversial Copper Bolt-Hole from 1858. You have to read the NGS sheets to even begin to understand how strange this mark is. PF0934 is a chiseled Triangle from 1876

We have occasionally had our fun here with the USPSQD but here are two reports that prove they really do have some heads up people. I saw these first hand myself about 3 weeks after these were filed and I could not have done a better job: PF0098'RECOVERY NOTE BY US POWER SQUADRON 2006 (AMW) PF0098'THE TIE POINTS ARE NO LONGER THERE. NO LOADING PLATFORM OR SIDETRACK. PF0098'CHECKING THE DISTANCE ALONG US RT 202 (MINOT AVE.) WHICH RUNS ALONG PF0098'VERY NEAR THE EXISTING TRACK NO CONCRETE POST WAS FOUND. A SMALL PF0098'SQUARE CONCRETE BASE, THAT WAS PROBABLY PART OF SOME STRUCTURE, WAS PF0098'NEARBY. OFSET TO THE SW CORNER, OF THAT BASE, THERE IS A DISC STAMPED PF0098'X15 RESET. THIS PROBABLY MEANS THAT X15 WAS DESTROYED. PF0099'RECOVERY NOTE BY US POWER SQUADRON 2006 (AMW) PF0099'MEASURMENT FROM THE TWO CURBS OF COURT AND GOFF STREETS DID NOT GIVE PF0099'ANY INDICATION, SEARCHING WITH A METAL DETECTOR. A LARGE BUILDING, PF0099'FAIRLY NEW, HOUSING THE WATER AND SEWER DICTRICTS IS AT THE CORNER. PF0099'THERE IS SOME LARGE COVER PLATES SUROUNDING THE AREA OF THE STREET PF0099'CORNERS. INSTALLING THE PIPING UNDER THE ENTIRE AREA MAY HAVE PF0099'DESTROYED THE MARK. My hat is off to AMW. Well done. And AMW.....if you are one of us here at GC.com, I wish you would start writing for us!

Hi Bill In my reports, I have done all the things you listed in 1-5. Photos and comments are available on GC.com and it appears that NGS has already posted my findings! I hear what you are saying about RESET marks not always being in the database due to lost or incorrect paperwork, meaning they may no longer meet NGS criteria for accuracy. But this goes back further to NOT removing the original data if a RESET, no matter how ill concieved, was submitted. I guess I have no comment to #6. I just had never seen RM's listed at such high numbers. And Junipers are a terrible detriment to locating marks. More often they have beaten me rather than Vice versa. As for #7.......The history is vague at best. No data from the original 1934 monumenting......then the vague description from 1977 saying RM 1 and 2 were not found and they were replaced with 3 and 4.......but no reason given as to why #4 points somewhere else. I think my real question here is whether or not NGS cares about these marks being lost and incorrectly carried in the database. Hopefully my updates will help any future surveyor looking for these items.

This weekend, while in the Lewiston-Auburn, Maine area, I came across some strange marks. I filed reports with the NGS but do not think they read such items so I am not sure that anything will happen about them. 1) First, two of my finds were RESETs dating back to the 1980's. The old marks were not indicated as destroyed or RESET although the new RESET marks clearly are moved. No big deal, I guess, we all see this all the time. Reference here is made to PF0101 and PF0098. 2) I am absolutely convinced that the listed co-ordinates for PF0101 and PF0099 are reversed. I have looked at these numbers three ways to Tuesday and am convinced the error is not with me. The error appears to be made by the same NGS surveyor in 1966. No name or initials were listed at the time the descriptions were made. It is probably a moot point since PF0099 appears to be destroyed....it should be located where the Auburn water district now stands.....and PF0101 is a RESET mark clearly not monumented as the description indicates. These two marks are about 1,000 feet apart and my guess is the scaling done back at the office got the PID's reversed. 3) PF1070, a Triangulation Station, is clearly about to be destroyed due to a construction project. This is the second such incident that I have reported. Will proper channels to NGS be made by the contractors? Will my alert be of interest to NGS? 4) PF0103, no longer exists. The bridge and retaining walls it was on were replaced in 1994. No RESET mark exists either. 5) PF0100 was set vertically in the side of a building. The building clearly no longer exists. In short....this whole area is undergoing change and there appears to be no records with NGS about it. I cannot claim any of the above marks as destroyed because I cannot offer 'hard proof' even though it is difficult to lose an entire bridge or municipal building. These above anomalies will remain on the active records (with my filed reports saying something is wrong) forever since the NGS does not seem to follow up on logged problems. 6) PF1077 is a Tri-station set on the highest point in Auburn. The main station is intact but will soon be buried in nature. It's one RM, (listed as #16) is destroyed. It's 2nd RM (listed as #18) was not found. It is presumed to be already buried by nature. When I say buried by nature, I am talking immense patches of Juniper. If you ever tried to dig through this stuff you know what I mean when I say the marks may be lost forever. Why are RM's listed as 16 and 18 as opposed to 1 and 2? Does the NGS care about this site knowing it may also soon be lost? 7) PF1064 is very interesting. All three marks are still intact. The main station is a cross cut shank. It has two RM's listed as #3 and #4. (was there ever a #1 and #2?) #4 is clearly pointing about 100 degrees from the main station and was reported as such by NGS in 1977. I am very curious why there would be RM's #3 and 4 but no 1 and 2......and that 4 points in the wrong direction. I do not think the setting is a surveyor error. I think there is more to the story. If anyone has any insights or answers, it would be great to see them here.

This is an interesting thread so I started doing some research on densometers. Guess what it led me to? A plain old simple 'stud finder'. http://wizdist.com/studfinder.cfm You'll notice that the model I am showing here will detect metal under soil or metal inside concrete. And is only $20. This one looks for METAL but others work simply on the density change of materials. These work by setting up a small charge and then watching for a small capactiance change as the density of material changes. They appear to be only good for about 3 inches in depth when dry wood is involved. It may be better in soil. I have an old one out in my garage and plan to go find it and 'play' tomorrow. I am very interested to see if it can detect concrete or granite under soil and if so, to what depth. This may be ideal for Papa-Bear-NYC looking for those old stone marks. As for Harry Dolphins probe suggestion: I have a 13 inch steeple nail with a T handle welded to it. I can't begin to tell you how many buried marks I have located with this.

Sorry.....I should have pointed out that I was on location and could not verify with a yes or a no. I had not found Atrmans good description but unless someone belonging to the USPSQD works at the Navy base, I am curious how they got full reign and access a mere 40 days after 9-11. This was a fun one.

I am returning to Pascagoula, MS for the next few weeks. I will return to the mark I found on a Concrete culvert at the ocean to see if it survived. I am also going to try and locate other sea oriented marks while there. This area was also hit badly by Katrina and I understand not much remains along the shore. I'll post you all when I get back.

How does one actually find and verify this one? http://www.geocaching.com/mark/details.aspx?PID=FX3237 Is it possible?

Allow me to speak to US amateurs. I do not think we should feed our hand held GPS co-ordinates to NGS at all. I consider myself to be very good at navigation. I am a trained pilot and navigator. I go back to the days of VOR, DME, LORAN and ADF. I have a very good hand held GPS. I consider myself to be very good at land navigation with years of hiking experience. I own a top of the line GPS. And from all this, I know that my errors on any given day and any given location CAN BE WRONG. We amateurs just do not have the equipment or the knowledge for the accuracy that professional surveyors demand. And I am not even addressing such issues as a wrong datum or inverted number when we type. I know that most of us amateurs out here use our heads and do not try to second guess the professionals. I also know that at some time or another we have found what we think is an error on their part. But that does not put us in a position to do anything more than SUGGEST to the NGS that there MIGHT be an error. I am probably preaching to the choir here, but just wanted to say that we non-professionals should not feel holier-than-thou about our fancy gadgets when compared to people that have spent their lives perfecting a science and art.

I stand corrected.....I re read the description and it does not say a disk. LX6514 STATION DESCRIPTION LX6514 LX6514'DESCRIBED BY COAST AND GEODETIC SURVEY 1934 (GCM) LX6514'THIS STATION IS LOCATED IN THE SEA WALL, S OF BEACH STREET IN LX6514'THE EASTERN PART OF THE SAVIN ROCK DISTRICT. IT IS 5.2 METERS S LX6514'OF THE S CURB OF BEACH STREET AND ON LINE WITH THE S FACE OF THE LX6514'EASTERLY PART OF THE SEA WALL. LX6514' LX6514'A STANDARD HYDROGRAPHIC MARK WAS SET IN THE SEA WALL AT THIS LX6514'POINT. OTHER MEASUREMENTS ARE SHOWN IN THE SKETCH. LX6514' LX6514'STATION WAS DETERMINED BY A 3-POINT FIX WITH CHECK. LX6514 Allow me to make a guess here....and hope one of our experts steps in...... 1934 sure seemed to love brass disks.....so I still think that might have been the main mark. The description says "a 3 point fix".....so I wonder if you found one of the reference points used to center the main mark location. I have found drill holes used as reference points around here. LX6514 STATION RECOVERY (1954) LX6514 LX6514'RECOVERY NOTE BY US GEOLOGICAL SURVEY 1954 LX6514'STATION BELIEVED DESTROYED, SEA WALL DAMAGED AT THIS POINT. The sea wall could easily have been made of rocks as opposed to concrete. In 1954 they report the sea wall is damaged at this location.......seems hard to believe that your rock was part of the seawall and was moved with the mark still up and still in place after so many years, again leading me to think it might have been a reference point. What is the seawall made of now? LX6514 STATION RECOVERY (1987) LX6514 LX6514'RECOVERY NOTE BY US POWER SQUADRON 1987 (MK) LX6514'RECOVERED IN GOOD CONDITION. This does not mean anything. The USPSQD is notorious for driving to a location, looking out the window and logging the general area as 'the mark'. It is also possible they found your chiseled mark with hole and without doing the research that you are, just claimed the find. They also never seem to give any info that would help the next person find these things. The initial log notes a sketch. You might try contacting the NGS and see if they can provide you with a copy of that sketch. (What a treasure !!) I should think it would clearly spell out what marks were used for the MAIN and REFERNCE locations and given one, you might find the whole darn mess ! Good Luck to you and have fun with this! Spoo

According to my 1940 edition of SURVEYING, by Davis and Foote: A 'hydrographic mark' can be any of several things pertaining to the measurement of a body of water. They can be used for finding the topography of a shore or bank, or for measuring the elevation of a body of water. Hydrographic marks were also used for determining tide heights and level changes in lakes and rivers. They are also used for irragation grades and for measuring discharge from streams. Edit note: Firefighter Skippy.......It is interesting to see that the U S Power Squadron declared this mark found without any comment even though the USGS declared it was probably lost 30 years earlier. Have you gone to look for it yourself? It would appear that it is a standard disk mounted in the top of a seawall.

I first recovered OC2817 in April of 2004. In July 2005, the bridge abuttment that it is monumented on was struck by a Tractor Trailer and then was hit again in October of 2005. Both Semis rolled over the abuttment and down the back but miraculously neither went into the water nor did the drivers get seriously injured. I decided to investigate the damage today. Part of the abuttment, bridge and barrieir can be seen as patched or replaced and serious movement of the abuttment is in clear evidence. The disk itself does not have so much as a scratch on it. I have reported the damage to NGS and have noted a new survey may be required to check the adjusted elevation accuracy. You can see the pix here: OC2817, G 16 RESET 1991

Bill93...... Interesting note and thanks for the 'heads=up'. I am currently in Washington state, Tacoma area, and have not been aware of the east coast haps with the satellites. My GPS as of NOW (03 Mar, 1315 hrs Pacific time) is showing two WAAS sats at this location. Just incase anyone wondered if a GPS can realize that large a sat move......YEP!!! P.S......I have had a little time to go BM hunting while out here with 4 confirmed FINDS, three NO FOUNDS and 1 anamoly. I'll post my info when I get back to Maine next week and can download my photos with my reports.

I don't mean to muddy the issue............BUT........... Several years ago, my company took several lightning strikes over several days and destroyed hundreds of thousands of dollars in test equipment on our outdoor ranges. These strikes, mostly against copper and brass antennas and feedlines, manifested themselves in many ways, from small blackened holes to fist size holes with melty edges. My company cut me loose to learn all I could about lightning and to prevent further damage. I learned alot from this experience and am proud to say that since then, we have not taken any more damage............. BUT.............. One thing I learned is....."you do what you want and lightning will do what it wants". Someday, my record will fall with a good strike. My point is that lightning may simply dance over an object, it may drill holes, it may blast apart its metal victim and leave sharp edges or it can just softly melt or pit the item. BUT....so do many other things. Only on active equipment and within hours of a strike was I able to verify lightning vs normal aging, corrosion or rot. We have also been able to examine known bullet holes from hunters and it is surprising how often the damage cannot be differentiated from lightning. Coudos to everyone that finds these anomolies on a BM and carefully records, photographs and reports them whatever may be the cause. Edit note: colerected spelllings

I have no proof, but think the pitting you see here is from lightning. Part of PF1145. http://img.Groundspeak.com/benchmark/lg/03...baa5b4484f0.jpg It is the highest point on the mountain aside from the tower.

I work as a civilian contractor for the military almost anywhere you care to name. I hold a Government security clearance and wear enough ID's, badges and passes on a necklace around my neck to make me walk bent over like an old man. I now have 20 years experience doing this and am well known in the military circuit. TRUST ME. None of it matters. If you aren't were you belong, if you aren't declared, have permission and (usually) escorted, YOU ARE GONNA GET IN TROUBLE! The bases I am on do not even allow me to carry a camera. Even a cell phone with a camera will be confiscated. I have never even asked about a GPSr. Especially since 9-11. Folks......use your heads. If you have an 'IN', like mloser, ok. But if you don't, then be prepared to pay the consequences. I will tell you all. I do not make any effort to recover marks from military property even though I know they are there and I appear to have a perfect opportunity to document one. It is not worth my job. And even if you are exhonerated for your actions, I'll bet it will be long and painful and your name will end up on a list that you do not want it to be. Take Coastiegirls' advice and just stay away.

Gasoline and a match? Jackhammer? That is the most painted over mark I have ever seen! Papa-Bear....my apologizes for disrupting your thread.......and my question does not really apply to your case here. We have all often seen BM's that have been hit with red, orange, yellow, blue or white paint. Maybe other colors as well. Can any of our surveyors tells us why this is done? At ground level, the painted marks still can't be seen from more than a couple of feet away and on elevated monuments, it shouldn't be needed for visibility. Does the paint color hold any meaning? I am just curious.

The other night, I mentioned that here in the North it is pretty hard to do much BM hunting of any significance. Tonight, I was reviewing some of my happier times in the field. I'm sure I have crowed to some of you about this but I hope you will take a moment and look at these sites and my pix. The mountains of Maine and New Hampshire are beautiful country. Whalesback Mountain, ME-NH border Mt. Pleasant, Maine Green Mountain, New Hamphire Ossipee Mountain, Maine I hope you all enjoy! EDIT NOTE: 'mentioned' = whining

2oldfarts: No problem. ANY hunt is fun but ANY prize is just icing on the cake! Well.....ok.....as long as you are asking, what about a nice one week vacation to the AZ area......preferably at this time of year.

2oldfarts: John and Shirley: Do not accept some of the quiet here as "not much interest". As BilboB pointed out, for some of us here in the winter areas, we just can't look for much more than an Intersection Point or a mark on a city building wall at this time of year. For us, to look for something old or profound will mean a hike in the forests or mountains or along the borders. To find something that might be 6 inches under the ground and with FEET of snow and ice on top of that is just out of the question. (But MAN.....wouldn't that be a 'feather in the cap' !!!!!!) As for BilboB's statement of 'fair and balanced'......well it is your game and you set the rules. No hard feelings here. I just wanted to say that some of us can't play right now.

It isn't a matter of who has the most toys. (He who dies with the most toys is STILL dead.) It is a matter of your application. As I stated, I like the mountain hikes. You know, 6-8 hrs of wilderness in the hopes of finding a mark. I just need to be prepared for emergencies by myself or with just one or two people in a remote location. Obviously, If I am hunting in a city, I would not need a couple of knives, canteens and survival food. Well.....OK......maybe here in Maine I would. Hmmmm....maybe you guys in NY, NJ or DC need to also. EDIT NOTE: Besides, I just want to know what you folks have discovered that I can use......like that Tecnu that mloser has shown. I think I could use that.