parker2
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Posts posted by parker2
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I would put forward assumng that every province is reprented at the group level that the members of the group stand up hold meetings in each province and show the drafts they have and collect input frm those who are concerned that show up at the meeting.
Actually, I think that is an excellent suggestion to help the working group. But this may not be the time and this is why I say so.
This is already in the planning stage in Saskatchewan.
I gave the links to the Act and the Regulations. That's only the very top layer of the process. After that comes several layers of policy. At the Ministry the policy directive sets basic standards by which all other levels of government down to the individual service level will set their policy. The top level policy directive will have mandatory parts that must be followed at all levels and optional parts that can be modified as needed at the next level down. Then the regional (could be provincial) level will set its policy directive with mandatory and optional levels and then down to the local service agency (in the case the Park itself) to set its policy in compliance with the top level. In other words there is no single policy to be followed.
I have reviewed both the acts, reg's, as well as regional policies for PC sites before I sent my first email to PC early last year.
Why? Well, because each region in the country is different with different service needs, developmental goals, working relationships with various groups,agencies and local governments, etc. They have to have flexibility to adjust to their local needs. Even more so at the service agency level. In the case of parks they each have their own flora and fuana and other environmental sensitivities to be concerned about. In some areas, Gros Morne, Banff and Jasper stand out, they have existing communities within their borders that must be accommodated.
Excelent post. The Ecosystems will differ from site to site as well. This will be one of the main topics in my point of view.
This working group seems to be at the very top level of discussion at this point. The outcome of this will not likely be and attempt to meet the varying differences in each region and park. That would be an impossibly long document that likely would not work at the local level and would be impossible to modify rapidly enough when needed. Think of a new species of animal being found in a park or a fossil find. You want the local level to be able to modify the policy quickly to protect those rather than having to go up the line and take months to get it done.
So, this is likely to produce a top level document to be followed by the regional and park documents. Those, by the way, will likely happen quickly once they are enabled to do so. I also have no no doubt that the process will follow almost all others that I have seen. When there is a discussion draft ready it will be made available for open comment by the community.
What you are talking about here is not an issue. Just as PC imposed a "interm policy" on geocaching, other issues can be done in the same way. The main diffrence between an "ACT" and a "REGULATION", is that an "ACT" has to be passed through goverment and a "REGULATION" just has to be passed through there officials. In order for an "ACT" to be placed into low, the "ACT" must be opened. This will never happen as when an "ACT" is opened, everything that has already been established can be questioned by anyone. This would cause lots of grief for PC in a whole. So IMHO, PC will make this a regulation and possibly move it into the "ACT" as a addition to the act so to speak.
By the way, I am all in favour of everyone getting their points out. That is the best way to make sure all points of view are heard. But that also means that everyone in the discussion must allow that and not keep making their same point over and over and effectively shutting out other discussion.
One final point is the use of representative throughout this discussion. The word has been used within the meaning of delegate. These people are not delegates and no pretense has been made about that. There was an open consultation process through the end of December (I believe that was the date). The people invited emerged out of that process. This is a working group and as such is looking for a cross-section of opinion not delegates. So represent in this case means cross-section not delegate.
IMHO, the word "representative" might of been used out of context by some or all. I know in my position, I will be giving the workgroup all feelings expressed from all complied data I have received from emails, surveys, meetings, etc. I will be giving this compiled data, not my own opinion of the matter.
parker2
Owen Parker
geocaching (at) parker12.com
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Wavevector, you quote me but unfortunately it is a misquote. Yes, I know you copied it. The 'people' I was referring to are the people who were asked by Parks Canada to participate. There are of course people in the world who don't like the sport. What I was referring to is that I can't believe that any of the geocaching reps or reps in genergal would possible have an agenda that would be against the good of the sport. What could possibly be their motivation?
Same for geocaching. What would be possibly in their interest to hurt the game in Canada. They want members and the best way to do that is to promote the game and expand it which also means get it into the parks. So, again, in my maybe naive way, I just can't see that constantly questioning the participation of people serves any purpose. As well, being a government employee and sitting on lots of committees over 26 years, I know how difficult it is for anyone person or group to dominate. These things are always about finding common ground and working out solutions. If one ever goes into these things thinking they can win all aspects of their agenda they soon find out they can't. So, from experience I trust the process to work.
For me, I would rather turn my attention to how we can all support getting caching accepted by Parks Canada by helping the group and giving them confidence to work with and negotiate with Parks Canada.
I think your post is great, and I hope that you keep active in this forum. I know myself, how talks run within the goverment. I do not have, nor IMHO does anyone have a hidden agenda in the making of the policy. I, being part of the working group, have not seen any hidden agenda of any of the members, and I know that even if there is, it won't last long. I am very pro-enviroment and a very active member as well as an executive member of our local wildlife fed. IMHO, I beleave that the enviroment should be first on the list, followed by Aborigional, public, comercial, etc (in that order), when dealing with any act, reg, or policy decisions. So with that being said, you should know where I stand in the making of this policy.
Owen
parker2
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Good job with the pages. Top notch work. I like the forum script, but there was an issue when I tried to set up an account.
parker2
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Hey david
Thanks for the post. I will log in to your new site tomorrow to check it out. It is great to see more groups getting together. Hopefully with in a month we will have implemented an executive and have a site up.
Owen
parker2
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I picked up the Buttons travel bug (TBFC30) in Calgary on the weekend. It's went missing in August 2004 and is a long way from Nova Scotia where it wants to be. If anyone can help it get east, send me a message and we can see about getting it back where it belongs. Thanks.
Derico
Well I'm not going east in the near future, but if you can get it to me, I will get the bug as far as the SK/MB border. Other than that, I could possibly be making a trip to Winnipeg in a month or so.
parker2
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Well it's not too new, but picking up force as we speak. lol
Please when you sign up, try to use your GC.com ID as this will make it a bit easyer to move over to the website when I have finished the development.
The first meeting will be held hopefully in mid-March in Saskatoon. This area of the Province represents aprox. 40% of the Prov. geocaching members. I will also be looking into a follow-up meeting in Regina shortly after. After the two meetings, our group will be looking at electing an executive to draw up our policies and beging the work on the orginization. I will post more info on the site when it comes available.
parker2
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Excelent post JDandDD. I am actually getting sick of all the BS in this forum but it will keep the working group on there toes. Im not too sure if DBC has actually seen the recent PDF sent by PC, as he has not asked about the NGO's that are involved. Maybe this is the secret group that he is talking about. I know it can not be the working group that he keeps saying is keeping him in the dark, as all the info they have has been released (usually with in 24 hours).
I just came back from a 4 day convention with NGO's and Gov. enviroment officials. To be totally honest, all I seen was the same thing over again from the past years, except in a diffrent context. Every Gov. agency ond NGO's will always have someone that has a problem with how things are conducted. If this forum was in any way not releasing the facts, I know that it would be wrong, and I would put a stop to it. Issues can not be delt with this way in any shape or form. The convention theme that I was at was "OUR WILDLIFE RESOURCE - A PUBLIC LEGACY". I know I will follow this theme during the up comming meetings with PC. We all shuld be resource stewards in this enviroment we have. I know some people are ignorant in this state of mind or we would of never been in the positon of talks with officials in the National, Provincial, and other levels of goverment.With this said..... it's bed time lol
parker2
Owen Parker
SaskCachers
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Hello all
Here is a quick run down
my GC ID is parker2
I am the contact person for Saskatchewan.
We have a group (not fully implemented as of yet) of just around 40.
I have been involved with geocaching since mid 01.
I enjoy every outdoor experience that I have tried.
When I was asked by PC to be in the workgroup, I gladly said yes as I know my input would be valuable.
I have been involved with our local branch of the wildlife fed. and I have seen what it takes to get a policy implemented.
As I pointed out in my private email, I feel the workgroup process is already doomed to failure. It isn't a matter of if, it is a matter of when. When the policy comes under fire it will immediately be gutted by the perception of bias, geocaching.com only exists to list caches and does this as part of a commerical enterprise, "at all costs" may be an exaggeration, "at all acceptable costs" is closer to the rule for a going concern.
As soon as a legislator is required to respond to a constituents concerns in regards to geocaching (see South Carolina) the legislator is going to be looking at a policy that was drafted in concert with people who are working on behalf of a business in the business of listing caches, you do not see any conflict in this ?
IMHO this policy, when drafted, signed, sealed, and delivered will be in the books for many years to come. The term geocaching in the policy will cover all aspects of the sport / game. It is not a policy that will be written for the Geocaching.com or Groundspeak.... It will be written for all park users to follow. There is no input from the company, nor will there ever be as the company is American based and has no say in the use of Canadian resources or lands. The reviewers that are involved, were asked to be in the workgroup for input on existing policies and regulations, no more.
By selecting certain voices Parks Canada is deselecting others, this is unavoidable.By closing the door they are restricting valid input.
Again, it has nothing to do with the minutae of discussoins, my suggestion was very clear, prior to adopting conclusions, post them for public review, even if you do adopt them you have added strength to the policy.
Parks Canada never "deselected voices". There was an interm policy that was drafted up last spring that asked for input from everyone including other stakeholders not involved in geocaching. After the closing date (Dec 31), the input to PC closed. This data that was collected form the email will be used in the policy making process. So the door was never closed, nor is it now. You can always feel free to contact the member of the workgroup in your area, or even one of the other members involved. There will never be a policy that will be agreed upon by all geocachers and stakeholders, I know from experience that this is 100% true. We as a working group, will have a long road ahead of us to help make a policy that will not only be good for all involved, but the enviroment as well.
parker2
SaskCachers
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IMHO, I do not think anyone in the working group has any other motives except for a policy that will be fair to all, especially the enviroment. Also IMHO, this working group was chosen by the PC officials from the degree of input and a willing to make a policy that will be fair. I know from other goverment policy making, things will never be 100% in favour for all, that is why there was a Interm Policy that asked for public input from geocachers as well as other stakeholders. I have seen best friends fight over a hunting zone that was closed to moose hunting. The fight never stoped the closure, and 2 best friends parted forever. So, if you would like to add some input or have any questions on the topic, please contact one of the members of the working group. If you have a dispute with the working group member in your area, I do not see the working group having an issue of contacting another in the group. They are all here to acomplish one thing...... and it is not to bicker over something, it is to better something.
That was my 2 cents
parker2
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Well everyone will have a different view on this subject, some will be similar and some not even close. lol
In my opinion, There are also "EXTREAM CACHES" that might only get visited every few years. I think that these caches should stay unarchived, unless the cache has been visited and a DNF was posted. I know that there are 2 located in my Province that have not been found ever (place over 2 years ago). The two caches will actually take a few days by water and land to reach. So in the act of archiving this type of cache, it will end up being "geo-trash" so to speak. If the cache owner can not be contacted the act of archiving will turn the cache into a litter problem. So we now need a way of each Prov. Org. to either find a new cache owner or going to pick up the archived cache. Maybe orginizing a CITO event to pick up archived caches a few time a year would acomplish this.
Well that's my 2 cents lol
parker2
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At this time the geocaching provincial representives are in the beging process of talks.
Who are all these provincial reps involved in the discussions? I think it's important to know who's representing all of us on this issue.
Thanks.
When the new thread is opened on the 12th (in and around there) there will be a list of contacts from across canada and in various provinces.
parker2
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Just curious if in the email you received (or in any communication), if Parks Canada has made any sort of indication if geocaching will be allowed in some way on their land? The summer sure seems like a long time to wait for them to probably tell us that geocaching is still banned on their land, and if that is the case, it will probably be too late to do anything at that point.
At this time the geocaching provincial representives are in the beginning process of talks. With in a few days, we will have a media / pr rep open a new thread that will give you a brief background of what has happened, and where we are going with the policy.
At this time (and until the policy is written in stone) the interm policy will still be in effect. When the interm policy was drawn up, virtual caching was still a part of the gc site and allowed under the interm policy with conditions (see link below for the interm policy). This will have to be changed to Waymarking in the future discussions, but I would think that it would still be ok.
parker2
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I am looking for anyone who can help me out with making of a gml file. I want to plot all of the prov. caches on an underlay of Prov. & National parks & heritage sites. If anyone has worked with this before, please drop me a line.
Thanks in advance
parker2
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Gps Rental
in Canada
Hello bob
Check out the reply to your post at the Sask. geocaching group.... I think it might be what your looking for.
parker2
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privateerc..... I see where you are comming from, but the other activites thay you listed are no more harmful to the enviroment than geocaching. The trail rules set up by Parks Canada (PC) should be followed by all users of the parks. There is no difference from someone holding a camera or a GPS off trail. The areas at risk of plant or animal damage are usually posted on the trail information sheets, or fully well known of the park staff. These areas where there would be issues of drastic ecosystem damage, would not have a hope in heck of getting approved for a cache placement. Yet in the same area, someone carring a $5.00 CDN disposable camera wanting to get a picture of some bird in a tree, 100 feet off of the trail will have no one to stop him except for his enviromental position of the world. Also in this sence, the trail users are also posing a threat to the ecosystem, even if they stay on the trail. One slip on a trail close to a riparian zone could cause damage to natural fish spawning areas or a un-educated child ripping that prety flower out of the ground to give to his mother. I could go on and on about the the pro's and con's on the subject until I was blue in the face. With geocaching, (if the new policy allows) cachers would be bound by strict rules of placing and locating. There are many ways that this can be implemented over the Parks & Heritage sites throughout Canada. I beleave with the geocaching representives and PC representives, we will be able to hammer out a policy that is not only good for both parties, but the enviroment as well.
parker2
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You can get what they call gun tape from the army surplus stores. It is dark green, (similar to the ammo cans) and sticks better than the duct tape. I used to have a couple of rolls from when I was in the reserves, but over the years, I have used up everything I had. lol Now I have been getting into the art of spraying the containers. I start with a dark base cote of green or black. Then you get a leafy branch from a couple of types of trees, place them over top, and spray the various shades of green over top.
parker2
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I can actually see where my posts and emails fall into the catergories. One of them is written 100% to what I wrote. lol I actually think all is going to go well with the final policy. The only issue I have with the whole of this is that PC only received feedback on the interm policy from 44 people.... and some of these were American. I know from dealing with the goverment, it's the voice that counts. Keep the email going to PC until the 31st of December..... Lets have our voice listened to.
parker2
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So is there going to be issues with the final geocaching policy with the political issues going on? I wonder if PC is going to put this on the back burner so to speak until the federal election is over. There is no way that PC will be able to hand out a policy until the house starts up in the spring or after the election. You never know what could happen.... we might even get a minister that loves geocaching him / herself. lol
parker2
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I should be able to get this for ya if you would like.....
N 50 57.000
W102 48.880
this is like 1.5km north of my house
drop me a line and let me know if this is ok for you and I just might get it tomorrow while I'm out hunting.
parker2
geocaching@parker2.com
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Forgive me if I've missed something, but who are you and under what guise and for what purpose are you compiling this information?
Well where do I start this off.....
- 1) My full name, geocaching id, and a couple of email address that I posted previously (and will be included again at the end of this email). I am a leadhand / supervisor at my day job and play in the outdoors in the evenings and weekends. Hopefully that should answer the "WHO" question you had.
- 2) I do not belong to any "GUISE" as you would say. I am a member of a few geocaching groups (also in the process of getting a Provincial group together for Saskatchewan), on the Executive for our local branch of the SWF (fisheries), as well I am a dad of 3 beautiful daughters that love the outdoors as much as I do.
- 3) Now for the third question. I am compiling the data to see what kind of interests there are in the National Parks. I got the idea a from a university student trying to find out if geocaching would help tourism in Northern Saskatchewan. The survey that I made is to get the opinions of geocachers (as well as non-geocachers) of the usage as well as the possible effects of geocaching and other activities on the National Parks. It has been of great interest to me when I seen that there was going to be a interim policy made. I have stated my own opinions to PC as well as in this forum. My main objective is to get something on the go before the policy trickles down to the provincial level. I think with a compiled data set from users of the parks, one can see the general consensus of a wide varity of possibilities and answers. I have been watching some of the other Provinces and States working on policies as we speak and it would be great to see what everyone else is thinking on the subject. I guess it like a great big meeting where everyone can brainstorm or add there so called "Two Cents" about the issues. 84 people already did.
If you have any further questions about the subject,
You can email me direct to the address listed below
surveyinfo@parker2.com
Thanks for you questions
Owen Parker
parker2
geocaching@parker2.com
- 1) My full name, geocaching id, and a couple of email address that I posted previously (and will be included again at the end of this email). I am a leadhand / supervisor at my day job and play in the outdoors in the evenings and weekends. Hopefully that should answer the "WHO" question you had.
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I am trying to gain some information on the usage of the Parks Canada sites by Geocachers. Hopefully with this information, I will be able to have a good percentage of data to compile. Please answer as much of the survey as possible. The more information that you can give, will help me understand the parks usage as well as the general opinions of geocachers on the Parks Canada Interm Policy. All personal information will not be disclosed.
The survey is located at http://www.parker2.com/gcform.htm
If you would like more information on this survey or would like to receive a copy of the data, please email me at surveyinfo@parker2.com.
Thanks in advance
Owen Parker
parker2
geocaching@parker2.com
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I am trying to gain some information on the usage of the Parks Canada sites by Geocachers. Hopefully with this information, I will be able to have a good percentage of data to compile. Please answer as much of the survey as possible. The more information that you can give, will help me understand the parks usage as well as the general opinions of geocachers on the Parks Canada Interm Policy. All personal information will not be disclosed.
The survey is located at http://www.parker2.com/gcform.htm
If you would like more information on this survey or would like to receive a copy of the data, please email me at surveyinfo@parker2.com.
Thanks in advance
Owen Parker
parker2
geocaching@parker2.com
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I have no idea..... but I want one now. lol
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Excelent post dogbreath. I think you might be on to something.
Now back to my two cents on the last few posts....
In my opinion, PC has more issues to allowing caching in the parks. I think the reason that they are going with the policy, is that it is easyer to slide a policy into the act than it is to open the act to add something. If they were to open the act, it would be open for interpretation for everyone to take a poke at it.... and this would not be good for anyone. If it does have to be put into the parks act, it will be added to some other policy being passed at a gov. seating. I would like to see something done before an election, but I do not think it is going to happen.
PC never said that they were or were not going to allow caching on there / our lands, they just have to find a way (along with the GC community) to allow caching that will be good for both sides as well as the enviroment.
Never give up..... voice your opinions ans suggestions to PC..... every bit will help.
parker2
I just came back from a 4 day convention with NGO's and Gov. enviroment officials. To be totally honest, all I seen was the same thing over again from the past years, except in a diffrent context. Every Gov. agency ond NGO's will always have someone that has a problem with how things are conducted. If this forum was in any way not releasing the facts, I know that it would be wrong, and I would put a stop to it. Issues can not be delt with this way in any shape or form. The convention theme that I was at was "OUR WILDLIFE RESOURCE - A PUBLIC LEGACY". I know I will follow this theme during the up comming meetings with PC. We all shuld be resource stewards in this enviroment we have. I know some people are ignorant in this state of mind or we would of never been in the positon of talks with officials in the National, Provincial, and other levels of goverment.
Saskatchewan Cachers - Travel Bug Needs A Ride East
in Canada
Posted
derico
Repost this to the SaskCachers group at the link below.
SaskCachers MSN Group