Bryan
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Regarding Adventure Lab, here is some additional information, updates, and answers to some of the questions that have been asked:
Lab Caches have been around for a few years. They were originally offered to Geocaching Mega events and Giga events as a way for event hosts to create temporary experiences for visitors without the challenge of placing and maintaining traditional (or other) geocaches for months before/after the event. The idea was to provide a toolset for combining locations, media, and triggers (in the current case, Q&A) so that creators could create interactive geocaching experiences to entertain geocachers. During the past few years, we’ve also tested non-Mega/Giga experiences as well, including ones at the Seattle Museum of Flight, Antietam Battlefield, Washington Park Arboretum, and more. Lab Caches also allow for the creation of private experiences – which we’ve tested with schools, for example, who would like to create interactive geocaching experiences but cannot have random geocachers showing up on school grounds.
The player tool for these Lab Caches has historically been a responsive web player – allowing participants to play using their smartphone browsers. Aside from a number of other technological limitations of this responsive web implementation (subpar GPS, for example), we discovered that more than a few players were sharing the ‘find codes’ and logging these experiences even though they didn’t visit the location or actually participate in this experience.
We’ve thought for a while about how we might improve this platform and ultimately decided to build mobile applications to support Lab Caches. Some of the goals of the application include providing builder and player access to the new technologies allowed through apps vs. responsive web, and notably, restricting the ability of players to fake log these experiences in order to bring more integrity to the platform.
When the Adventure Lab mobile applications were ready for testing, we had to decide whether to turn off the responsive web player before launching the apps, or to allow them to exist simultaneously. Since we were really looking to test the app(s), it didn’t make sense to retire the system that had already been working, albeit with limitations (including fake logging), before we could confirm that the apps would function as expected. So, we decided to wait to retire the responsive web player until we could adequately test the mobile applications.
So, today we have a limited test where a few hundred geocachers and a number of geocaching organizations are being provided with access to the builder to create some test adventures. While some great new experiences have been created, we still have the issue of fake logging through the responsive web player (and possibly also through the use of GPS spoofing). Despite that fact that the fake logging is not new, it remains understandably objectionable to Adventure Lab creators. Although we planned to eventually retire the responsive web player without a specific end-date in mind, information gathered during this testing phase leads us to believe that expediting the retirement and better addressing fake logging are more important priorities to be addressed soon.
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So, here is what will be happening next:
To be clear, we plan to continue developing and supporting the Adventure Lab applications and overall platform. We believe there is significant potential to provide a broader array of fun experiences to engage and delight geocachers.
Upcoming changes will include the ability of a creator to adjust the required logging radius for each of the Lab Cache locations. We believe that this will allow creators to enable logging from a nearby hotel room or Wi-Fi location, but still prohibit logging from non-participants, especially those hundreds of miles or kilometers away.
On or after March 25th, we will be retiring the responsive web player.
We will publicly adjust the associated Lab Cache guidelines to state that fake logging, whether through GPS spoofing or other methods, is not acceptable, and that violators will be subject to discipline including potential account locks and/or future prohibition from the use of the Adventure Lab platform in its entirety.
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For what it’s worth, we believe that ongoing innovation and testing of new ideas is important. Over the past 18 years, we have tested many different ideas with varying levels of success. We believe in this project and intend to continue with it as we move forward.
And yes, we still have a sign at Geocaching HQ that says, “Let’s make better mistakes tomorrow.”
We sincerely appreciate all of you who have offered constructive feedback on this project and we ask that you keep it coming. Thank you.
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1 hour ago, The A-Team said:
With a web form, tourists could wait until they get home or at least wait until they connect to hotel Wi-Fi in the evening.
An alternative would be to create a large enough validation radius so as to allow for logging from a hotel or somewhere 'reasonably' nearby while not allowing for couch logging from the other side of the planet. Assuming we provide tools to allow for builders to select the validation radius (perhaps with some recommended values), I think this could be a reasonable solution for validation in low(er) coverage areas.
At the same time, we realize that moving to a mobile only strategy for Adventure Lab (Lab Caches) does make it harder (or impossible) for people to play if they don't have a smartphone. Unfortunately, this is a choice we are making because we believe that accessing the value of potential features unlocked by smartphone technology is critical for enhancing the platform and realizing more of its potential for interactive geocaching gameplay and associated storytelling.
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Bryan, thank you.
Thank you elyob, and thanks to the rest of you waymarkers for being involved. As I've said, I am still a huge fan of Waymarking and I have a deep appreciation for everyone who continues contributing to this project! Have a great weekend everyone!
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I believe if Geocaching HQ ever post again in these forums there will be some very unhappy Waymarkers because I believe the site is slowly dying off.
While there may be some unhappy waymarkers, I disagree that the site is slowly dying off. There are a number of us at Geocaching HQ who continue to participate in Waymarking as category managers, myself included. We have made some efforts to fix bugs and make small updates over time. Sure, it's not ideal but as most folks know, we have been primarily focused on geocaching for the past many years and don't intend to change focus anytime soon. At the same time, there is a lot of love for Waymarking within the walls of HQ and we do have long term aspirations of improving the site and service. There are no plans to shut it down and we appreciate the fact that people continue to use it and contribute many new waymarks every day. My sense at this time is that most waymarkers appreciate the fact that we've been transparent regarding our focus, and many will continue to participate as they see fit going forward.
Thanks for posting and letting us know something official from HQ.
You are most welcome.
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I believe if Geocaching HQ ever post again in these forums there will be some very unhappy Waymarkers because I believe the site is slowly dying off.
While there may be some unhappy waymarkers, I disagree that the site is slowly dying off. There are a number of us at Geocaching HQ who continue to participate in Waymarking as category managers, myself included. We have made some efforts to fix bugs and make small updates over time. Sure, it's not ideal but as most folks know, we have been primarily focused on geocaching for the past many years and don't intend to change focus anytime soon. At the same time, there is a lot of love for Waymarking within the walls of HQ and we do have long term aspirations of improving the site and service. There are no plans to shut it down and we appreciate the fact that people continue to use it and contribute many new waymarks every day. My sense at this time is that most waymarkers appreciate the fact that we've been transparent regarding our focus, and many will continue to participate as they see fit going forward.
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We are closing this thread.
Please understand that we have no intention of publicly commenting on the reasons for retirements of community reviewers. We do not comment out of respect for all parties involved.
The information being presented by the retiring reviewer in this thread is, we believe, an inaccurate and incomplete representation of the facts. Feel free to take them as you see fit, but we will not be commenting further.
We wish Dave well and thank him for 8 years as a volunteer reviewer. His contributions to the game have been appreciated by Groundspeak and by the geocaching community.
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Hi Everyone,
I am sorry this took so long to fix, but we believe we've found the error and fixed the issue. When you have a moment, can you please test it out and confirm?
Thanks!
-Bryan
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Ladies and Gentlemen, this topic has clearly run its course and I am closing it. Here are a few parting thoughts:
The vast majority of geocachers and geocaching organizations are a wonderful force for good. We are inspired by how these groups organize great events, help new players learn the ropes, create awesomely creative geocaches, and go above and beyond to foster the welcoming and inclusive geocaching community we all know and love. Our goal is to keep the game fun and safe, and we applaud the efforts of groups that help make this happen.
Then there are the others. It’s rare, but some geocachers and geocaching organizations/clubs/teams/groups actually promote the harassment of other geocachers and/or HQ employees. Harassment can take many forms: geocache theft, nasty logs, spamming emails, or posts across social media platforms. We’ve seen some really harsh examples of this lately and it’s unfortunate, to say the least.
Historically, we’ve felt that the best response is to ignore the groups and handle the negative behavior on an individual basis. This is because we feel it’s a dangerous and unfair practice to label an entire group based on the actions of a few bad actors.
Going forward, as in the past, this means that when an individual geocacher’s activities cross the line from harmlessly irreverent to harassment or even the encouragement of harassment, we will simply not tolerate it, including, where appropriate, locking accounts as well as engaging and/or fully cooperating with law enforcement.
We want to create a positive and inclusive community that is fun and safe for all members and we’re asking everyone to continue helping make it happen.
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Congratulations on 500,000! This is a tremendous accomplishment! I am very proud to be involved with Waymarking!!!
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Thanks to everyone for their feedback on this topic.
First, I’d like to apologize for the lack of clear and proactive communication. You deserve better and we’ll do our best to provide clear information more proactively in the future.
As of April 17th, Groundspeak is collecting and remitting VAT on sales of Premium Memberships within the EU. Where applicable, receipts for PM payments will include the statement “VAT Inclusive” going forward. We believe this is the legal requirement we are required to meet. We are registered for VAT via the U.K. under the special scheme for non-EU Businesses and we have an EU Vat Registration Number. We are currently researching whether is it OK for us to provide this number publicly. We do not want to publish the registration number if it is not permitted or if it would cause other issues. For those who question whether we are in fact registered, the best I can do now is to give you my word that it is true. If we can provide more, we will.
Because of the wide range of VAT rates throughout Europe and the United Kingdom, and also for ease of explanation on the site, we settled on one price for all EU and UK customers: 29,99 euros and 24,99 pounds, respectively.
With a static $ PM charge, European customers have historically held the risk of currency fluctuations. Each year of Premium Membership (for non-recurring payments) would be charged at a rate that depends on currency fluctuations. Going forward, by presenting the fees in foreign currencies, Groundspeak will bear the risk of currency fluctuation and customers will pay the same price year after year, should they choose to remain Premium Members. We recognize that this is currently more than $30 after VAT and does include additional revenue to cover associated costs (such as currency conversion fees) and to hedge against future currency fluctuations.
We have always believed that the value of a Premium Membership is fair and, ultimately, the customers will decide if this is correct. Although we have never adjusted our prices in the past, with the new required change to include the corresponding VAT charge that we will be remitting to the EU, we continue to believe that the price is reasonable for the service provided. Some of you will agree and some of you will disagree. Regardless, we are making our very best efforts to deliver value for the cost and, as you know, your support is what keeps the website, mobile applications and company going forward.
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Bryan,
Thank you for the follow up. I don't know what factors you are taking into account while deliberating this issue but I urge you (as a premium member) to leave the "backdoor" open as a matter of fact and policy. Jeremy Irish has repeatedly emphasized that the game should be free and locking basic mambers out of logging PMO caches would set a very bad precedent. Secondly, it would require that families with multiple members that keep seperate accounts each get a PM in order to log caches that they find together. In the interest of full disclosure, that would apply to my household, although Susancycle logs less than 10% of her caches online.
We believe the 'backdoor' is an important element of family geocaching (caching with friends too) and have no plans to eliminate it. Rather, I think we need to do a better job of setting clear expectations for PM only caches in the guidelines. While PMO caches should not appear in searches by basic members, if a basic member participates in a geocaching excursion with a PM and finds a PMO cache, signs the logbook, etc, we believe they should be able to get credit for the find. That was the original purpose of the backdoor and will continue to be the purpose. At the same time, to be fair to PMs, we need to set expectations properly and we, admittedly, haven't done a great job of this historically.
This is good news. While you may not be able to re-instate deskdata's logs due to a cacher that I consider to be a (insert appropriate descriptive term here) I'd hope you would delete the notes from the CO referring to deskdata as a "cheater" and a "hacker". As NYlimb pointed out these notes violate your rules as well.
I am hopeful you will be able to convey your intentions for non-PMs to be able to log PM caches in the future.
I'd also suggest you do it ASAP. It probably won't be long before other COs want to delete logs for this very same reason.
Can you please share some links to the inappropriate notes from the CO? Thanks.
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It seems straws were finally brought to a high level meeting, and we see who drew the short one.
I was intrigued by one word of the post. RULE. Anyone who has been around the block around here a few times has heard: we don't have rules, we have guidelines (leaving maximum wiggle room for TPTB). That is more than just semantics. That is a palpable difference. So, which is it?
We realize that this rule is a little bit vague ...
I was part of the decision making process on this and it was my choice to respond. No straws involved.
Yes, 'rule' was a poor choice of words. I should have said 'guideline'. I am not sure how much wiggle room that provides us in this particular case, but it's more appropriate to call it a guideline, for the sake of consistency at the very least.
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Bryan,
Thank you for the follow up. I don't know what factors you are taking into account while deliberating this issue but I urge you (as a premium member) to leave the "backdoor" open as a matter of fact and policy. Jeremy Irish has repeatedly emphasized that the game should be free and locking basic mambers out of logging PMO caches would set a very bad precedent. Secondly, it would require that families with multiple members that keep seperate accounts each get a PM in order to log caches that they find together. In the interest of full disclosure, that would apply to my household, although Susancycle logs less than 10% of her caches online.
We believe the 'backdoor' is an important element of family geocaching (caching with friends too) and have no plans to eliminate it. Rather, I think we need to do a better job of setting clear expectations for PM only caches in the guidelines. While PMO caches should not appear in searches by basic members, if a basic member participates in a geocaching excursion with a PM and finds a PMO cache, signs the logbook, etc, we believe they should be able to get credit for the find. That was the original purpose of the backdoor and will continue to be the purpose. At the same time, to be fair to PMs, we need to set expectations properly and we, admittedly, haven't done a great job of this historically.
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The policy doesn't seem to be that basic member logs on a premium member only (PMO) cache are perfectly cromulent as a matter of course.
The policy seems to be that:
(1) basic members can't log PMO caches through the operation of the regular website or phone apps;
(2) Groundspeak has a backdoor system that they actively maintain that allows the possibility of basic members to log PMO caches;
(3) Groundspeak is cool with basic members using this workaround to log PMO caches;
(4) Groundspeak would be happy if all cache owners were cool with this workaround as well;
(5) cache owners are still within their rights to delete basic member logs when appropriate; and
(6) Groundspeak has the ability to reinstate inappropriately deleted logs.
What isn't defined is what exactly the word "inappropriately" entails in these situations.
In this particular case, the cache owner deleted some logs merely on the principle that he is not cool with with #4 and only wants premium members logging his cache. Groundspeak's initial reaction was that this was not an appropriate exercise of the cache owner's power to delete logs, but on review reversed its decision and re-deleted the logs. Here, then, this particular cache owner was acting appropriately. Or, at least, not acting inappropriately.
I'd like to hear from a Groundspeak lackey on this, though -- even if it's just "you're right, we realize that the rule is still a little vague, so we're working on clarifying it one way or another."
I am sorry for the delay in responding to this topic. I hope this helps...
You are right. We realize that this rule is a little bit vague, so we're working on clarifying it one way or another. Some notes:
In (1) above, I'd add "or view" after the word 'log' so it should read: (1) basic members can't log or view PMO caches through the operation of the regular website or phone apps;
Historically, we haven't seen many Owners of PM caches who weren't cool with the workaround. In this case, we found a CO who believed it was his PM right to delete logs of basic members, which he did. When we reinstated them, he pointed out our own language which suggests that he does, in fact, have the right to delete those logs... or more clearly that PM caches are only available to PMs. Upon review of our own policy and his seemingly valid complaint, we reversed our decision. It's a regrettable outcome and we need to do a better job of clarifying expectations here, one way or another.
We're going to work it out shortly.
Thank you for helping to frame the issue.
-Bryan
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Congratulations on a HUGE milestone! 400,000 Waymarks is a tremendous accomplishment!
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From: ********** <***@Groundspeak.com>
To: ****** <*********>
Sent: Mon, February 13, 2012 4:22:58 PM
Subject: RE: Geocoin Design
Hi *******,
I am not sure why he is sending people to me for an explanation. No, I am no ok with it. As far as I am concerned, he has had a VERY long time to make good on his customer’s orders and has not yet done so. I understand that he has personal excuses but, at the end of the day, it is not ok to do what he has done to customers and I believe it can easily be considered fraud.
As a customer, I’d suggest that you exercise any and all legal remedies available to you. If you choose to give him more time to work through it; that is your choice. However, he is solely responsible for delivering the products that his customers paid for and, regardless of issue’s, I believe that those products are LONG overdue.
Sincerely,
Bryan Roth
I fixed it for you (with emphasis added) and I stand by what I wrote. As customers, I’d suggest that you exercise any and all legal remedies available to you. If you choose to give him more time to work through it; that is your choice. However, he is solely responsible for delivering the products that his customers paid for and, regardless of issue’s, I believe that those products are LONG overdue.
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That is really sad news. May he rest in peace.
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I have not yet heard back from this vendor despite my phone calls and an email yesterday. Considering the circumstances, until further notice, this vendor has been removed from Groundspeak's list of authorized geocoin vendors.
The Vendor's Company name has been removed from the Forum List and we've submitted a development team request to have the vendor removed from the Geocoin Manufacturers and Resellers list accessible from this link as well.
Hopefully everyone gets the coins that they paid for and hopefully we hear from the vendor soon.
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It's now January 23rd. I just left this vendor another voicemail message. Since he received them on January 5th, I would expect that the paying customers would have received their orders already. Clearly this has not been the case.
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I just left him a voice mail message. I am hoping he either replies to this thread with an update, or returns my call immediately. I will post an update as soon as I have one.
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Nate,
"Updated Terms of Use Agreement (Section 4) to clarify age restriction for posting to Groundspeak Discussion Forums" seems to be causing some confusion being discussed in the General and OT forums.
Can you clarify what exactly was changed and what Groundspeak's current policy on age restriction for posting to Groundspeak Discussion Forums actually is? (In other words, would you mind clarifying the clarification?)
Historically, there was no mention of age in the requirements for posting to the discussion forums. We've now added the following: "To post in the Groundspeak Discussion Forums, you must be 18 years or older, or under the supervision of your parent or legal guardian." What this is intended to mean is that users who are under 18 can post in the forums but only if they are supervised. While identification and enforcement may be a potential issue, we expect to use this provision in cases where abuse of the forum guidelines is taking place.
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I bought the app for use on my ipod touch. Now I've sold the ipod touch and picked up an Android based phone. Since I already bough the program, can I transfer it/get credit to use it on my Android phone? My other purchased apps for my nursing job offered this without hassle. Suggestions?
czaralex,
I am sorry, but Groundspeak doesn't offer a credit or free transfer of the Geocaching application between devices.
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The following is being posted by Groundspeak as a courtesy to Ubisoft. I've seen the demo and it looks really cool. Please feel free to participate if you are interested:
Hello Geocachers!
The Treasure Hunter Institute team is proud to announce the launch of its Closed Beta!
THI is an on-line adventure game currently being developed by Ubisoft, inspired by geocaching. It is aimed to challenge your mind with puzzles and riddles combining brain power with orientation skills in a 3D world. While not focusing on a linear story progression, it provides many quests tailored to appeal to a wide range of players and promotes user content creation.
Join THI in the Beta phase and experience the game first-hand by playing the quests and maybe even creating some of your own. Providing feedback and suggestions to the development team is appreciated.
To join our Closed Beta please click on the following link: http://thi-dev.ubi.com/index/closedbeta. It is completely free to play!
Thanks and enjoy the game!
The THI team
Edit: Adding some photos.
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I refuse to believe that they will return anything until they actually do so. I certainly hope I'm proven wrong and everything goes back to their rightful cache...
I've been told that they just placed 1/2 of the missing trackables here:
Confidence is high (in my office anyway).
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A Mod's Take on the Geocaching Forums
in General geocaching topics
Posted
Wow, 20,000 Forum posts! That is amazing! Congratulations and thank you for all that you have done and continue to do to support the game and global geocaching community! On a personal level, it's been absolutely wonderful getting to know you and spend time with you over the years and I (and Hydee) hope to see you again soon!