KBLAST

Again - you make assumptions. Truly unfair to do to bigdog who is trying hard to work this out. You are receiving responses from those around the area who believe differently than you. If you took the time to read my "irrelevant" post you might understand that these are NOT necessarily his friends, this is how the caching community around here feels about what you are saying and doing. Not that they are right, but you'd do well to not make assumptions like that again. It's not fair.

I understand the fact that our personal caching community is not relevant to the guidelines. I even stated that we need to play by the official rules, even if our local ones are different. I essentially explain to bigdog and any other tree climbers in the area in terms that I hope our local caching community will understand, and I get quoted and taken out of context. Please don't do that. I want to help provide understanding for why we have said what we have and provide context to something you don't understand (nor should you be required to understand). I don't want my own place to create tree climbers. I want to provide understanding all the way around. So again, you are right, we are wrong. Thank you for helping us see the error of our ways. We will take from this and do better in the future. Please try to understand why this has become an issue for us and just let the reviewer do his job and review the site and help bigdog fix it, since that's why you posted the NA log in the first place.

This is completely irrelevant. Your tree-climbing cache pages can certainly state the intention of the cache owner - it's up to the individual cacher to decide whether or not to adhere to that. When someone lists a cache at Geocaching.com, he/she agrees to adhere to the guidelines. The guidelines state the following: Geocaches can be logged online as Found once the physical log has been signed. The cache owner cannot set additional rules for cache logging. The terrain of the cache is irrelevant, local norms are irrelevant. This cache is an ALR, and it's against the guidelines the owner agreed to when he published the cache. OK - I know I get wordy sometimes. Mostly because I like to say enough to be clear. Apparently you blew off the rest of my post and focused on the part you quoted. So here, for you: We get it. Bigdog is working on rewording his stuff. You are correct. We are wrong. You win. Are we OK now?

It's happened. My favorite tree climber I created burned to the ground. Not by a cacher, by an arson. I had to archive it. There was a climber called SOABHMGDTDIHTC? where some muggles saw the container in the tree and they chopped it down. Cache had to be archived. Ladders are used often by some - tree climbers tend to pick on those who use them, but know that it happens. That's why a lot of the caches are REALLY high up - ladders don't go there as easily. There are over 50 tree climbing type caches in Columbus alone. If you're really all that interested, check out: http://www.geocaching.com/bookmarks/view.a...96-8263bf5b9051

Before getting into other stuff, let's drop the silly discussion about people signing for each other. I don't know anyone who caches in a group that doesn't have one person grab the log and sign it for everyone. If you're trying to make a point, we get it. Now the other stuff: This is what happens when people play "monopoly" differently depending on what part of the world you live in. If you look at Psycho Urban Caches, you don't see people having their friends sign the log because someone else went in and got it (at least, I don't see it there). It's just part of how things work in that area of the world. What you may or may not know or care about, is that there is a huge group of tree climbers in the Dayton, Cincinnati, and Columbus areas. It has been established in this area that it is appropriate to do some tree climbers as groups, and others are not logged unless you do them yourself. These caches are indicated by the owner stating their intentions for that tree climber in their description. It makes it more clear for people, and is REALLY common to see around here. I mentioned this forum discussion at the Cache and Coffee event I was at today, and EVERYONE agreed that they see both points, but that we try to respect the wishes of the cache owners, out of respect for the cache owners. What we ran into here is that we have an outsider coming our way who doesn't play monopoly by the same rules, all they see are the WRITTEN rules, and they want us to play by those rules. I can TOTALLY understand this. I guess we as a tree climbing area probably need to continue respecting each other and letting others who come our way play however they want according to the rules. Bigdog - I know this doesn't fit what we have all begun to understand around here, but people who aren't from our area are going to cause serious problems for what we've come to enjoy if you don't change your message to be less threatening and more suggestive. I think your cache page is probably fine as is, it's your maintenance log that needs revised. You know how much I love tree climbs, even though I'm not as good as you and some others. I will personally respect your wishes, just like I will for drainhook (someday I hope to do Dozer's), alfamonkey (same with 7up), Team JNLE4, lttldude, brtruitt, etc... but if they don't want to, they really don't have to. It's your decision if you continue to fight this battle, and I think it's too bad that what we've created around here is not understood by others, but hey... maybe this will provide a good opportunity to expose "outsiders" to our brand of "terrain", even if they choose not to do it how we do it.

OK - my last post before I head to our local monthly meet 'n' greet. Here are my overall thoughts: Nothing can be done to keep people from posting found it logs and having other people give stuff away and "ruin" puzzles, multis, wherigos, difficult hides, etc. I understand this. I know people give each other hints and stuff in order to help each other out. It's all part of the game. More important than anything in this whole game are the people involved. Both the hiders and the finders. It's a game, and that's secondary to the people involved. I'm sticking up for my tree climbing friends around the area because I care about them. Others are sticking up for their friends who want to go have a good time finding caches and don't have time or aren't able to physically log the find. I disagree that a cache owner WANTING to maintain the "integrity" of a difficult cache might want to delete logs that lower the degree of difficulty. If a cache owner wanted someone to earn a 4 terrain cache find by making them sweat to and work to get TO the tree, they would have hidden it on the ground. Around here, that's NOT a 4 terrain, it is usually a 2-3 terrain. Now, whether or not you RESPECT a cache owner who worked hard to create something like this, and whether or not you agree with his reaction to that, does not make him the bad guy and you and others like you the good guys. I have lots of friends on both sides of this issue, and around here, it's a pretty hot topic. I have a daughter in a halo because she fell from one of these trees - believe me, I know how big of an issue this has become. People are proud of their accomplishments - otherwise, like Geo Bain said, who needs "finds"? I am proud of the trees I've climbed, the holes I've crawled in, the difficult finds I've grabbed, the puzzles I've solved, and the number of caches I've found. I'm also proud of my friends who accomplish these things, and I'm proud as a cache owner when someone FINALLY conquers a tree climb I created. When someone cheapens the accomplishment, emotions fly. I PERSONALLY don't care about groups finding my caches. That's their choice, and I hope they had a good time doing them. But I will CONTINUE to do my best to be respectful of the others who are hiding caches, and I will do my best to comply with their wishes, ALRs or not, because they ARE people, and they matter. When you log the find on my friend BigDog421's tree climb, just log the find and share the experience. Don't say 'X' climbed it and signed it for us all. Problem solved. And I also think the needs archived log was a bit much here. A note or a discussion with the CO and the whole discussion on the board and the posts on his cache page might have been avoided.

I just took a shower, and as I was showering, I realized I need to respond to something _I_ said. I was wrong for saying that anyone would JUST want a bunch of park and grabs. That was a personal attack that is an exaggeration of my earlier logic/comments/drivel/whatever. I would go back and edit it, but it wouldn't be fair to other people who already read it and/or responded to it. Therefore, all I can do is say I'm truly sorry for that comment. This is not sarcastic, I really mean it. (OK - is it sad that there's so much sarcasm in DBs that I have to clarify that I'm serious?) Anyway, sorry.

You are all correct that there is little the cache owner can do to stop people from signing their names to stuff. Heck, in the end, it's all just a game anyway, right? The Cache owner made it very clear that he would prefer you climb the tree, but if you talk about how you didn't climb it, things might happen (like deletions). So the OP wants to follow the rules that don't allow for people to delete their log entry if they mention that they didn't climb the tree. Why? It's just a game! We all play it a little differently! The CO wants to follow the rules about deleting logs where the signature is in question. Why? It's just a game! We all play it a little differently! This is what happens when we are all playing a worldwide game with a set of rules that can be interpreted differently. It would be like playing Monopoly on a worldwide scale. SOMEONE would complain that they landed on Free Parking and didn't get the pile of money in the middle of the board because that's how they've played the game their whole life, even though it's not in the REAL rules. ALL THIS TO SAY: Good caches require time and effort to create and set up. When people like the OP decide to not follow the WISHES of the CO, the CO will archive the difficult hides and will not create new ones. If I put a bunch of my money and effort into a hide, I don't want one person finding it and telling the world how to solve it. Nor do I want everyone and their brother signing the log for others because it is too hard for them to get to. So in the end, you'll end up with good, creative, challenging hides being done away with, and you folks will be left with all park and grabs. Hmm... Maybe that was the intention of the OP. Never thought of that.

That's awesome! We should all have fun. I had fun a few months ago when my daughter and I drove a number of miles to watch a group tackle a 5 terrain tree. By the time they got all the ropes in place and all the gear ready, we had to leave. We had an AWESOME TIME with lots of FUN!!! Our names are not on the log, nor did we log a find on the cache online. I think it's silly that we HAVE to sign our name in order to have fun. There were about 5 people out there at this group who did not sign their names because they did not complete the cache's challenge. They ALL had fun. If we follow this logic, then I can have fun sitting at my desk reading other people's found it logs and then post my own because I had a GREAT time virtually!!! One more thing - you can feel free to do the same thing here in a group - one person signs the log while everyone else forages through the cache. You will all need to be up in the tree to accomplish this, though... Just like you ALL need to be out in the rain or near the mosquitoes or by the ticks in order to log the finds you're talking about. So by all means - have a group find - in the tree!

I think for my numbers friends I'm going to go to the ET Power Trail and sign all of their names to the logs as I'm doing the trail. Hope there's enough room for all of them! I think for my buddies who struggles with puzzles I'm going to solve all of the puzzles in my area and give them all the coordinates. I think for my friends who don't have time for multis and wherigos I'm going to go and do the multi then give them all the final coordinates. Heck, I might just sign their names for them! I think for my friends who can't be bothered with hiking 3 or 4 miles I'll just sign their name to the log. I don't like doing the virtuals and earthcaches - I wonder if my friends will reciprocate by photoshopping my face into their pictures that they send off to the COs and give me the answers to their questions? All this should help me complete the challenges I don't have time to complete - maybe I can trade a tree climb log signing for a friend of mine in Cleveland so I don't have to drive up to northeast Ohio to log finds in those northeast Ohio counties - oh - that should help me with the Ohio Delorme challenge, too!!! HERE IS THE IMPORTANT PART: I live in Columbus - better known as "Hookland" because of all the tree climbers that Drainhook has put out or influenced in the area. There are some tree climbing caches I've done in groups and have had the "climber" sign the final log - but ONLY if I thought the cache owner would be OK with it. I've even gone so far as to call the cache owner to verify that the fact that I waded through a creek to get stage 3 and was a spotter at stage 7 was good enough for my name to be on the log. This is NOT the case for all tree climbers - there are some I am building up to doing ON MY OWN and I will not accept someone signing my name on the log, nor should the CO. If I'm going to the trouble of working up to physically being able to sign this log myself while dangling 50 feet in the air, I don't want someone who didn't put in the work signing next to my name. That's the point of something challenging with a high terrain. If having someone complete the terrain in order to claim the smiley is an ALR, then I'm going to drive my friends who like to hike around Ohio and have them do the tough terrain hikes while I sit in an air conditioned restaurant, then I'll go pick them up later after they've signed our names to the log. After all, I did all the driving.

My daughter and I are going through a really rough couple of months. I was out seeking a cache and got a bad case of poison ivy. It spread quickly and I scratched it. A few days later it swelled up my arm and I could barely move it, so I went to urgent care. Got antibiotics and steroids to take care of the swelling, but in the process of scratching earlier, I apparently caused a secondary infection. I had to go in to get an MRI and had to have surgery to remove the remnants. I just got out of my splint I had to wear for 11 days. My 13 year old daughter had it worse. She was doing a tree climb where the cache was 10 to 15 feet above the ground, but there were no limbs until you reached that point. She climbed it great, put a rope around the limb to stabilize, and got the cache, then as she was lowering herself down (sort of repelling down the tree) she let go of part of the rope and fell backwards to the ground and landed on her back. She got up after lying there for a while being comforted, and we moved on to the next tree in the multi. She then started complaining about her back, so we went to children's hospital, where they discovered she fractured her C7 (lower neckbone) and was confined to a hospital bed for a week. After the week, they put her in a halo that she is going to be in for 8 weeks when it's all said and done, and then she'll be in a neck brace for 4 weeks after that. Her entire summer is going to be much less active than she is used to. Sorry if these seem flippant or nonchalant - believe me, I have dealt with this in more ways than I care to share here. I just saw the topic and felt like I had to share.

I once had a guy who posted a found log on a tree climbing cache we have. He said it was too hard to get the cache, but he saw it, so he logged it as a find. I wrote him and told him that signing the log is required, so he'd need to either go actually get the logbook and sign it, or change his post to a note or a DNF. A week or so later I deleted his log. A week later he logged it again. Turns out his email for geocaching was not one that he ever checked. I finally had to post an ACTUAL note on the cache page to get his attention. We finally got to have a good email conversation where he decided to avoid tree caches from now on. This was a newbie. If this newbie were not corrected early on, he'd continue to log finds on caches he never found (sounds like that's what's happened with these folks in your area). It's a big deal to me that we spent a lot of time and effort creating an experience and people don't complete the experience and cheapen it. It's also a big deal to the cachers that HAVE found it - they're proud of their accomplishment, only to have someone log it who didn't put the same effort in that they did. D/T of 5/5, 3/2.5, 1/1 - if they don't sign the log (at least as a team name) then they don't get the credit. Heck - if we followed the "hey, play the game how you want" mentality, then I have a few caches I'd just swipe and claim were muggled so I could have the area to put a GOOD cache in. There are reasons for guidelines and maintenance rules, let's not ruin things by ignoring them and blowing them off.