releasethedogs

Id pay an extra 30 bucks to create one virtual a year and log one locationless per year.

Not that I am happy about it but I always thought that if they signed the log you could NOT delete their find.

Quite pointless to complain about your privacy when you list your location in your public profile.

If cache owners do their job and delete fake logs what is the problem? Caches that don't get maintained should be archived. Their is no reason why webcams should not be allowed.

The problem is they don't talk to their users and ask us what we want. Just one day they say ok, we are doing this, deal. Getting rid of challenges was one exception as they did give us lots of time.

I was going by what was posted in his profile. If he is currently a educator, it is curious as why he says he is in law enforcement. The reason why a rotting deer wont work as a lesson because that deer is not historical. Yes, in general they were important to native peoples of North America but not that specific deer. Not to mention that deer is not permanent or semi-permanent. Still if you are willing to prove me wrong id love to see a lesson plan including how it fits into the national education standards as well as state of Florida's educational standards. I had assumed someone in the education field would comprehend that a person can wear many hats. Obviously, my assumption was in error, and I cry your pardon. I am in law enforcement. I have been some flavor of LEO since 1982. I also teach. Would I call myself an educator? Probably not, as that is not the primary source of my income, and, my teaching is almost all law enforcement related. I hope that clears things up for you. Back to the historical value of the rotting deer carcass... Putrifying Bambi A virtual cache by BillyBobNosePicker Back in 1841, BillyBobNosePicker's great, great, etc uncle Bubba NosePicker was the first practicing shaman in Volusia County Florida. Following a bitter, 45 year long feud betwixt neighbors, the NosePickers and the Flaglers, (which incidentally ended up defining the border between Volusia and Flagler County), Uncle Bubba was arrested for witchcraft and, without so much as a trial, he was hung at this spot. As he expired, Uncle Bubba released his death curse on the angry mob which strung him up, but as he was not a very good shaman, his curse missed the mark, targeting the innocent forest dwellers instead. On the 13th day of each month, an animal inexplicably perishes at this exact spot. Because these animals died from dark magics, their remains do not get consumed by scavengers, and instead, the carcass will remain until it completely rots away. The Wiccan Council from the nearby Spiritualist town of Cassadaga verified the tenacity of the spell cast by Uncle Bubba, confirming that creatures killed by such means tend to repel living animals. The University of Central Florida, and Seminole State College have teamed up in an attempt to debunk this bit of historical curiosity, (cited in the book Weird Feuds), but to date, have not come up with a rational explanation. One archeological dig conducted at the site revealed various animal bones going back well over two hundred years, concentrated in a very dense area, comparing the density of the bones to the La Brea Tar Pits in Los Angelas California. At the land owner's request, digging is no longer permitted on this site, and all traces of that dig have been purged in an attempt to preserve the history of witchcraft in Central Florida for future generations. Come visit the site, and see if you can feel the residual thaumaturgic energies left over from so many deaths. To claim this find, describe, as best you can, what kind of critter is currently decomposing here. So, maybe a rotting deer carcass could have significant historical value... Wow! Fiction sure can be fun. What is described here is a fictional back story to base this cache on. I searched several news paper article archives and nothing was found to show this is in fact a true story. It is a complete fabrication at worse and a Urban Legend at best. While I will give it to you that Urban Legends are fun to think about. They are not educational, just like this cache. Rotting animals are not educational.

Similar posts in other forums have been considered to be duplicate topics and locked and directed to this thread. Doing what you suggest only adds more work for the moderators. Besides, the Feature Request forum is kind of like a black hole. It sucks up all of the good ideas and spits out grey icons. You will notice that there's a thread open in the Feature Suggestion Forum that's specific to returning the "blue frownie" icon for the DNF log type. If there are other, specific, constructive suggestions, Colonial Cats is providing good advice. So, everyone, quit pointing at Colonial Cats and laughing, or you won't be laughing here at all for awhile. Maybe instead of getting mad every one is laughing at him, read between the lines and figure out that your users really don't feel that GS listens to them. Their are tons of good ideas in the forums and GS has failed time in and time out. "feature" after "feature" that just made things worse. "features" we did not ask for and don't want. "features" that are 3/64th complete and then abandoned forever. The point is the feature suggestion forum is a huge joke because GS ignores its users. They have proven time in and time out that they don't care. They wont engage their users at all and don't even post in the forums when they change something.

Still if you are willing to prove me wrong id love to see a lesson plan including how it fits into the national education standards as well as state of Florida's educational standards. Forget the deer carcass. If you want a standard level for that language used for a new type of virtual cache, Florida or national standards might make sense for a virtual cache in Florida. However, this is an international game, played in many countries where literacy rates are far different than they are in the U.S., and I'd have a hard time supporting an article in the guidelines which dictates that people in other countries have to comply with U.S. guidelines. I said florida because that is where he claims to be a teacher and thus he would know the state standards from there. You know what they say about assuming...

I was going by what was posted in his profile. If he is currently a educator, it is curious as why he says he is in law enforcement. The reason why a rotting deer wont work as a lesson because that deer is not historical. Yes, in general they were important to native peoples of North America but not that specific deer. Not to mention that deer is not permanent or semi-permanent. Still if you are willing to prove me wrong id love to see a lesson plan including how it fits into the national education standards as well as state of Florida's educational standards.

never say never

Of course Not so fast. Historians don't censor. We report. This is where having qualified reviewers come into play. You could make a cache telling about George Lincoln Rockwell (as you use for an example) or Abe Lincoln but you can't say they are good or bad. it needs to be written from a neutral point of view. You simply tell what they did and let the reader come to his/her own conclusions. I agree that propaganda should not be allowed however saying things you don't agree with are not allowed is exactly what the Nazi's did. So I think we can agree that they should be written from a neutral point of view. agreed. yes. I know and agree that simple is better, I don't think Groundspeak agrees though. People are going to not like it regardless, you can not please everyone. People do stupid, mean things in real life just to be a jerk. They do this on the internet with more frequency because the internet is semi-anonymous.

I don't see much difference in your proposal. The section on Education is also somewhat confusing. Probably because it has too many Articles in in. After defining in the first section what sites are allow, you now say that the cache itself needs to have some historic property. I suppose you don't want someone to ask the numbers on the utility pole that is next to the memorial? Educational themes may be one underpinning of what makes something 'wow'. When coming up with the Best Kept Secret Waymarking category I asked a lot of people what made a good virtual cache. Many replied that when the could learn something, that was the best part of a virtual cache. Drilling down further though, it became clear that simply having a history lesson was not enough. Often what was learned by going to the site was finding something you didn't know was there before. This became the theme for Best Kept Secret. I know several people who don't like EarthCaches or any virtual where they feel they are being taken to school to learn something. They geocache for fun and they find these pedantic caches boring. However I don't doubt there are others who would like an educational cache. If your intent is to create a category of educational caches then this section points out the difficulties. When you start specifying what grade level to target and what language to use one wonders who is going to check for this (particular when a non-native English speaker is trying to create the cache). In addition, it is nearly impossible to come up with educational question that can't be answered by internet research. Even the most obscure historic events have information on the internet. It is likely that any site that qualifies is already listed as a Waymark and often there will be pictures there that could be use to answer question. Certainly EarthCaches have shown that you can require the cache to be and educational experience, but even there the requirement often creates controversy. The Section on Placement, Logging, and Maintenance is fairly straight forward. It raises some questions though. It appears the main goal of the placement restrictions are to limit the number of virtual caches. I can see many disputes over permission and over whether the location could support a physical cache. This could require more reviewer time than either verifying the site is historic or the cache page is educational and written at a middle school reading level. Articles 5, 6, and 7 could be rewritten (and probably combined) to make is clearer what the maintenance requirements are and explain that failure to maintain the logs on the cache page will result in the cache being archived. The creation of a new class of reviewers for virtual caches needs further discussion. Whoever is reviewing virtual caches will have their hands full even enforcing a simplified version the guidelines presented here. It's not clear to me that there will be anyone who volunteers (or at least remains a volunteer for any significant amount of time). If I were take time to write my own proposal, I'd eliminate as much review as possible. No Wow (or educational) hooey and no need to show you can't put a physical cache there. I'd rely on fees or a lottery to limit the number of virtual caches. Finally, my personal view that allowed me to view virtual caches as geocaches is not represented in these guidelines. The original virtual guidelines stated The fact that I could take my GPS and go and find a specific object is what makes something a geocache for me. If that object brings me to an interesting place or if the cache owner shares something about the place on the cache page (without being too pedantic) then that is a bonus. Really? You have no idea? I gave three examples. Your utility pole example wont work because not only can you not be sure that numbers will alaways be there but that does not have to do with the history of the location. If people don't like education caches that is fine. Not all caches are meant for all people. The thing that makes this a great hobby is the freedom to pick and choose what caches you go after. If you don't like learning, thats fine (but tragic). It is your choice to make. The majority of Americans read at a middle school level. This is so every one can take part in the process of logging a cache and we don't have some one using jargon that only people with doctorate degrees can understand. It is also for that reason that non-native speakers can make a cache. Earth caches have a similar requirement. If I can find random people to translate my earthcaches in to Korean and Arabic (and soon Russian) then virtual cache authors won't have any problem finding some one to translate into English which is more widely spoken than any other language (this counts people mono and multilingual people). What do you base your statement about reviewers on? Is their some actual data that can support that assertion or is it your "gut"? I do agree it needs more discussion however my outlook is more "can do" then "everything is doomed". Finally, It seems like you want to create something with out controversy. What world you you live in that you think this is an obtainable goal? Lotto systems are no good as they can be gamed. People can enter simply to deprive people the chance to make a cache. I do like your simple "pay a fee, make a cache" approach to virtual caches but the community at large is against that.

I would argue that you have not. A common fallacy for those who wish to restore Virtual caches is that subjectivity can be eliminated by the lengthy wording of guidelines. Your constant repetition of the phrase "outstanding value" demonstrates this perfectly. Who gets to decide what constitutes outstanding value? If we leave this up to the players, we'll have more rotting deer carcasses and lonely sneakers, as I can most certainly articulate a reason why both would have outstanding value to local history. If we leave this up to the Reviewers, then we are right back at square one, with an angst generating "Wow!" factor. You could make the guidelines as lengthy as the New York City phone book, and so long as you leave any portion up to subjective values, such as those used in your earlier proposal, the process is doomed to failure. With all do respect I can tell you have a background in law enforcement and not a background in education. I don't mean this snarky. I mean it as an actual fact. You enjoy your career because you think a certain way and I enjoy mine because I think a certain way. You say if we leave it up to the players ... well we won't leave it up to the players. Their is no way that some one can design an education lesson around "rotting deer carcasses and lonely sneakers" these item do not have educational value. No reviewer with a background like I have stated will let this pass. Really, you need to go back and read the entire phrase. How does a rotting animal even come close to any of this? It doesn't. You do highlight an important point though that should be added. The site should be reasonably permanent. I say reasonably because nothing will last forever, the location will have to have a reasonable expectation that it will be there for a foreseeable future which rotting animal don't. A area explaining what should be done with the old virtual caches is a great idea. Personally, I think that the status quo is fine. If an old virtual becomes archived then some one can publish a new virtual in its place so long as it fits the new guidelines. Some will and some won't -- that is part of the game. Some sort of plaque is just one example that I would say a reviewer could as for proof the place has historical merit. As for your question about the bar Bruce Springsteen played in, it depends. Did something historical happen there. With out a doubt Bruce Springsteen is a important (but minor) historical character. If he performed there and nothing of note happened then no. If this was the place he first performed Born in the USA then maybe we have something. If the user can write a lesson showing how that is an important event then sure. Of course they need to site their sources like they are required to do with any document that reports history. That part might be a little hard to do, but not impossible. It depends on the convictions of the cache author. Your example of the location for the surrender of the Germans is something that fits the charter perfectly. Meeting/conferences that don't have historical value are going to have a very difficult task meeting the guidelines set forth under section I. I think a fee is necessary. It further discourages people who might try and make lame virtual caches. The fee and the listing requirements keep virtual caches uncommon. As far as vacation caches go, I think it is fine although it may be difficult because the author would need to gather all the information needed while on vacation. If the reviewer needs more information it might be difficult to obtain. I have been all over the world and have seen a bunch of stuff I wish I could share with virtual caches. I made a Earthcache of the Sphinx! I think that provided the author jumps through all the hoops that it should be allowed.

because you're one of the few people who bothered. Challenges was an experiment that failed so they extirpated from the site like a dead appendage.

I will not comment on the details of your concept, but will just mention that I neither would be willing to submit a virtual along these lines (the fee is only one of the no go aspects for me) nor do I believe that I many virtuals that are attractive to me would result in my area. Moreover, too much remembers me of the EC guidelines, like having to focus on the level of 14 years old. That's part of the EC program as they want to keep the program open for as many people as possible and their goal is to educate as many as possible and thus they have to lower the level. Personally, I prefer to offer caches that are interesting to a small group who then will really appreciate what is offered and not something that appeals a little bit to almost everyone. What I write does not mean that I have a scenario in mind where all virtuals are like those I would want to implement. It rather means that I'd like to have a niche for this kind of virtual as well. To sum up, as said before, I prefer virtuals that get a separate counter, are not reviewed and are very flexible. As soon as virtuals do not count together with caches with containers, Cezanne Yes, you have already made it clear what you want. As for what makes an interesting virtual cache I think we can agree to disagree. Some thing I think we can both agree on is that virtual caches as the majority of people want are not for you. Virtual caches need to be treated like actual geocaches. This is why challenges failed. This means they need to be integrated into the site. They need to be reviewed. They need ownership. They need to be on the map and they need to count toward your find total. Other wise they are challenges with another name. I appreciate the time and thought you put into this and I gave it an open mind, trying to make it work for me - or, more importantly, work for reviewers. I don't see how this will solve the problem of people's subjective ideas about what constitutes adequate Sites and Properties. I fear too many people will, again, submit less than adequate proposals and then tear into the reviewers for denying them. This, too, will create headaches for the reviewers who will not be able to verify the conditions. The snarky answer here would be "and how did that work out for you the first time?" On the not-snarky side, virtual caches were too easy to walk away from when the C/O's lost interest in the game. With a physical cache folks will start complaining when maintenance is non-existent and the caches eventually succumb to peer pressure and the Needs Archived button. Changing the title of those who review these caches will not lessen the grief they will be subject to. The very fact that these reviewers are specialists, which would be good for the cause, will likely result in more denials. Archiving caches is part of the game. Nothing wrong with that. If some one walks away from their commitment then they are taking a chance their cache will be archived. How is this any different than ANY other cache type? I think that I have successfully defined what a cache is to eliminate subjective caches. A beautiful view is not covered under the charter I wrote. Some dead animals in someones back yard is not covered. You can't prove these things are historical. A memorial to a local hero who did something for your town? sure! This is great so long as you can write an education lesson that teaches what this person did and why it is important. If I am missing your point please respectfully explain to me how I got it wrong, that way we can fix it. As far as the placement the goes this is basically on the cache owner's word that another cache type could not be placed there. This gives the powers that be an possible reason for archival if the cache becomes a problem. I believe that this wont be a problem if their is a fee. Why would some one pay to put a cache where they could put a regular in the same place for free? They wouldn't and if they do, thats fine so long as it does not become a problem and it meets all the rest of the guidelines. Still you are taking a chance and your cache could be archived at any time. Why take the chance and loose your money, use a regular instead. As far as abuse goes, anyone who would accept a position as a reviewer obviously would know what the job entails. This would be made clear before they were given their powers. If the answers suck the reviewer just needs to respectfully explain what they can do to fix it. Done. I am a teacher. I knew going into to the job that I would work long hours for very little pay and respect. I don't do the job for money, or so parents who don't even have a high school education can tell me I am an idiot and don't know how to teach. I do it because I enjoy helping kids learn and making a difference. Unlike many parents, people who tear into reviewers are not angry at the reviewer they are just frustrated their cache did not go through. They are frustrated because it feels like all their hard world is for nothing. We need reviewers who can work WITH the cache authors and patiently explain what is not up to speed and realize the personal attacks are not personal. I own several earthcaches, I recently had a guy whose answers were pitiful. It took a lot of patience on my part and over 15 emails over the course of about 12 days for him to submit acceptable answers. This is the kind of person id recommend to be a reviewer in general and for the possible new virtual caches. I am not saying I should be a reviewer, just some one with qualities and qualifications similar to mine.

The thing is "history" is such a large umbrella. That is why I wrote the charter the way I did. This way you can make a virt about some local history as well as national history, regional history or world history. But you can't make a cache about your grandfather unless he did something important and can show it had some sort of major effect of the local area and there is a physical place to go (no your front yard does not count). I think i made it clear the place must be some sort of monument or plaque, ect. Still I don;t like the name history cache. Sounds forced. Also, this may be a little off topic but id like to see Webcam, locationless, virtual, earthcache as well as any future virtual style cache lumped together on the profile under "containerless" (or similar) like events are.

historical is fine but other things are possible and can be written into the charter I think we should keep the name virtual cache because other focuses are possible. already in the charter please see article 8

This is a little some thing I came up with tonight. Took me only a few hours and no resources other than my time. It is meant as a proof of concept to illustrate how virtual caches could be brought back. It is not meant as a finished product but simply a starting point. *Constructive*, *polite* criticism is welcome. Geocaching Virtual Cache Type Charter Section I. Definition of Virtual type geocaches Article 1 – “Cultural Sites” For the purposes of this document, the following shall be considered as "cultural sites": ~~~>•a. Cultural monuments: Sites that commemorate an event with outstanding value to local, national, regional or world history or science. ~~~~~~~>oExample: Utah beach in Normandy France. There is nothing architecturally important about this site. The reason it is important is because of the events that happened here. ~~~>•b. Cultural areas: The works of humans or the joint works of humans and nature; archaeological areas which are a outstanding value to the local, national, regional or world history from a historical or anthropological point of view. ~~~~~~~>oExample: Montezuma Castle National Monument in Arizona, USA. This is not a monument but a piece of history left behind by humanity. A feat of humanity and nature working together. Article 2 – “Artistic Sites” For the purposes of this document, the following shall be considered as "artistic sites": ~~~>•Artistic monuments: Works of architecture, sculpture, paintings, inscriptions or cave dwellings which are an outstanding value to local, national, regional, religious or world history, art or science. ~~~~~~~>oExample: African Renaissance Monument in Dakar, Sengal. This monument celebrates the African Renaissance, the concept that African people and nations have started to overcome the current challenges confronting the continent and achieve cultural, scientific, economic, etc. renewal. Section II. Educational Program Article 3 – Historical properties A virtual cache must have local, national, regional or world historical relevance: an event of some sort; a discovery, a battle, a meeting/conference, a performance, a creation, a first (As in first airplane flight.), ect. Article 4 – Educational properties A virtual cache must provide a simple but accurate explanation of the historical event that occurred at the site, as well as the historical importance of the site. They should be written at a reading level equal to an upper middle school student (14 years old) assuming no prior knowledge of the event or its consequences. All statements must be cited and works given at the end of the cache description. Article 4 – Challenge questions To certify that a person did in fact visit the site, challenge questions are necessary. Between 1-5 questions are important and should focus on information available at the site. The questions should be written so that internet research is not sufficient to log the cache. In addition to the questions that are mandatory, a photo can also be required. Answers to challenge questions must be provided to reviewers before publication. Article 5 – Languages The language of historical research and journals is English, as a consequence all virtual caches must be written in English. We highly recommend that descriptions be written in addition to English in a language common to the area. Article 6 – Geological sites Locations that are more of a geological or earth science focus are not appropriate for a virtual cache. Please make an earth cache. Section III. Placement, Logging and Maintaining virtual geocaches Article 5 – Placement ~~~>a. fee: Unlike other geocaches virtual caches are not free to make. Virtual geocaches can only be created by buying a creation code, such codes are available in the online store for $10. ~~~>b. authors: In addition to the fee, only premium members are given the privilege to create virtual geocaches. ~~~>c.permission: A virtual caches respect private land. Cache authors must seek approval for landowners/managers or provide information showing the site is on public land. ~~~>d.appropriate placement: Virtual caches are only appropriate where leaving a physical container is not feasible for reasons of safety, law, environmental or practicality. Cache authors are expected to write a convincing explanation of why a physical cache is not possible. Article 5 – Logging A virtual cache can only be logged after physically visiting the site, the answers (and photo if required) are sent to the cache owner and they have given you permission to log. All logs that do not follow this guideline should be deleted. Article 6 – “couch potato” logs A cache owner is required to reasonably investigate any suspicious logs and delete any that are fraudulent. This may includes asking additional extra questions if necessary. If the log is a couch potato log it should be deleted to maintain integrity. Article 7 – maintenance Cache owner is required to not only maintain the integrity of the logs on his/her virtual cache but also the integrity of the place its self. Cache owners agree to disable and/or archive the cache if the site become dangerous or otherwise harmful to the site or the environment. Article 8 – reviewers Virtual caches should not be forced upon volunteer cache reviewers. Instead a team of virtual reviewers with a background in history, social studies and similar subjects should be assembled. These reviewers should only reviewer virtual caches.

I have contacted the owner of key to freedom III

I became platinum on 03/31/2012. My EC in Egypt is the Sphinx, I get a fair amount of cheaters. I delete a bogus log pretty much every week.

You're right. It's not the same travel bug/geocoin. Inqontrol seemed to think it was his because it was the same kind of geocoin/tag, and because the OP posted a note to his trackable page asking if it was his. I do not think that it is the same trackable as was pictured at the top. I doubt Inqontrol's TB had the key attached. Nevertheless, that number posted by him should not be made public, whether it's the same one or not. It's one of the fundamental rules about all trackables, here. I looved up as many of these kind of TB as I could before we figured out it is Key to Freedom III. You don't want to do that. Never post those numbers on the internet. You'll get in trouble that way. Yep! Some cacher will discover it just because they saw the number online. already happened. Still waiting for owner of key to freedom III to contact me with the code.

The age of him actively participating has come and gone, eh? I wish he would do this again. I agree with this. Earth caches have reviewers that are experts. Get History or social studies experts to review them. Then Keysone wont have to leave. As a Platinum Earthcache master I can tell you this is right on the money. One of my Earthcaches took nearly two months to publish. Their is a high degree of quality control. This is good. I think the main route to new virturals is these X steps: 1- Limit how many virtual caches can be placed (X amount a year for paid users, fee to make a cache, ect.) to make people think if this place really warrants a virt. 2- Dedicated knowledgeable reviewers with a background in education, history or the like. Make people apply for this job. Make them prove their qualifications. 3- As toz has said come up with actual guidelines for them. See post 121.

excellent. thanks everyone. looks like this is it. i'll keep everyone updated.

how many characters in the code? is it alphanumeric or only letters? any one know?

normaly id just assume it is not trackable but the words "track at geocaching.com are visible. A few digits are able to be made out but not all.