GuanoGerbil

I'd suggest you throw it into Mount Doom itself. This is also known as Mt Ngauruhoe here in NZ. I'm an alpine climber here and would be happy to do it for you. Although this volcano is not currently active, it does tend to erupt every few years (although I don't think I'd be up to climbing it next time it does - those rocks can go a long way!). There's not currently a geocache up on the summit, although I keep meaning to place one some time. Speaking of which, another contender would be it's big sister nearby - Ruapehu. This also erupts every few years, but when it's sleeping, it has a lake in the crater which would make a good final destination in the meantime if finding someone crazy enough to throw it in molten lava is going to be a problem. I've got a geocache up there right by the crater (GC1CD9G)

Here in NZ, it is unquestionably Flax. It is so common, that it's even inspired me to hide a cache dedicated to the nasty stuff: http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...25-17b0a73381ec

That reminds me of another one... http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...ff-b5d3113f2175

What exactly is the difference? On another user's cache page, the wording by Groundspeak is "Unknown (Mystery) Caches". It seems to me that they're the same thing (i.e. all non-traditional, non-multi, etc., which includes puzzles and everything for which you need "to do something before you hit the field"). Or is one really a subset of the other and is the wording just bad? It's probably that my wording is bad as you say - or at least I didn't make myself clear on what I meant. There are Traditionals, Multi's, EarthCaches, Wherigo's, Virtuals, Letterboxes & even Events categories. Pretty much everything else is lumped together into "Unknown". The vast majority of these seem to be Puzzle style - where you have to solve a puzzle before you can step outside to start looking. These are the ones that annoy me (but of course other people do enjoy!). There are a number of Unknown category caches out there however which are not puzzles. For example, you are given the starting coordinates and then you answer questions along the way from information given on-site to get the final coordinates. Or they are completely, and refreshingly unique entirely. These are what I meant by Mystery caches - basically any Unknown caches that aren't puzzles (the terminology probably isn't correct - but that's what I meant) My point is that not all Unknown caches have bogus starting coordinates. And that perhaps Puzzle caches deserve a category all to themselves due to the overwhelming number of them (at least around here). A puzzle by definition would have bogus coordinates listed, and a puzzle must be solved before the true coordinates can be revealed. It would also then be easy to filter out any puzzles only if you were that way inclined.

Don't forget Mystery caches are also placed in this category, and for these you will often go directly to the coordinates posted to begin with. It's a pity they're lumped together in the same category - if you ignore all "Unknown" caches because you don't enjoy puzzles, you risk missing out on doing some great Mystery caches.

Wise words indeed

Coordinates on their way to you now. Thanks for the kind offer of help Figures and Tonyward. If you're still keen to go, let me know & I'll forward on the coordinates to you if you wish.

I've got a list of 22 purely puzzle caches hanging around town which I haven't done yet. These all fit into that catagory. It annoys me whenever yet another one pops up. You're probably right about the puzzles I can't solve. I don't mind the idea of puzzle caches if they are basically token puzzles - very obvious (but then what would be the point I hear you say!). What I don't like is having to spend a lot of time researching to solve them. I would much rather be outdoors actively finding them, which, in my mind, is what it's supposed to all be about. But that's just me - I understand that now. This thread has been very enlightening and I now feel much better about the whole concept of puzzles (even if I still hate them!).

Are you kidding? Most of the Mystery caches I've found were just that - Mystery caches. The few puzzles I've found were very easy which matched my puny puzzle solving abilities. There are heaps more of them scattered all about town which I simply don't have the time, the patience or the inclination to even try. If the owners of these puzzles really wanted people to find them (and I'm playing devils advocate here...), then how would they feel if I just emailed them and said I don't like puzzles, but I want to find their cache - can you just give me the coordinates? The high terrain equivilent of this was actually done on a cache deep in the bush. It involved (according to the owner) a minimum of 3 days walk to find the cache and return. The FTF'ers flew in by helicopter! Probably not quite what the owner had in mind, but it was all very amusing and done in good humour. The next person claimed FTF by foot. I claimed FTF by foot in a day - got to love those challenges...

Can you not see that those two statements are identical in the effect they have on the difficulty of the cache and therefore on the traffic? Both of those strategies are to provide a challenge, and I cannot understand why you see them as different, let alone why you see the first as "bad" and the second as "good". The point I was trying to make is that most difficult terrain caches are necessarily difficult. The cache may be hidden at the top of a mountain, or at a spectacular waterfall deep in the bush for example. They are difficult places to get to, hence the high terrain rating. The cacher wants to get people to visit these beautiful places, but there is simply no easy way there. He does not seek out these places merely because they are challenging to get to - instead, they just happen to be that way. With mountaineering for example, you get to see the most gob-smackingly beautiful places imaginable, and it's a real shame that more people simply will never see these places. But the ones that are a little more accessible are definately worthy of a cache so I can share these special places with those who wouldn't normally go there. A puzzle cache on the other hand is made difficult to find intentionally by the owner. It could be a simple find, but they have made it more difficult for the sake of it. Granted, some high terrain caches would fit into the same catagory as you're alluding to with puzzles - whereby they have been created with a high terrain intentionally by the owner. 'The Worlds Worst Tramp' (GC1MR5F) would be a good example. OK, I get your point - I can't disagree with you there!

You raise a very good point - I hadn't thought of that! Yes we all need to challenge ourselves in different ways. BTW, any clues you can give me on some of the local puzzles around here you've solved already? I am very impressed!

Most of the people on this forum who state unambiguously that they want to limit visitors to their caches (presumably to the most worthy cachers who will write good logs) are those who hide their caches in difficult terrain or require a long hike, a boat, or a technical rock climb. So your statement below is obviously incorrect: One intention of the cache owner who hides in difficult terrain may be to bring people to an outstanding location, but another motive is clearly to reduce traffic to the cache. Carolyn You've misunderstood me Carolyn. I don't believe the majority of puzzle owners add a puzzle element with the intention of reducing the number of people to their cache. By adding a puzzle, they have intentionally made the cache more difficult to find, with the resulting effect of less people visiting it. You have got my second quote wrong completely. It is exactly as I have stated. I don't believe difficult terrain caches are ever created with the intention of reducing the amount of traffic. They can either be created for the physical challenge involved (in which case you want as many people as possible to push their normal comfort zone and challenge themselves physically) or they are hidden in outstanding locations which more often than not just happen to be difficult places to get to (in which case you want as many people as possible to go there to appreciate the places that they may otherwise never see). Due to the terrain rating, you can't expect many people to visit, but it would be nice if they did! I can't understand why some people out there would want to limit the amount of traffic to their cache - why hide it in the first place?

The reason for the puzzle is to add a challenge, not to prevent people from finding the cache. This is nothing like the other examples you give, and adding a puzzle is no different from placing the cache in a terrain where few people will go. Each method adds a challenge, and different people will rise to different challenges. I don't quite agree with all of this statement. A puzzle simply makes what would normally be a (usually) easily found cache, more difficult to find. It therefore makes what could normally be a well visited cache, much less visited. This is done intentionally by the owner. The main focus of this sort of cache is in the puzzle itself - the container and position usually play a much less important part. A high terrain cache however is not expected to get many visits due to the difficulty of access. The intention of the owner is to encourage people to the cache, and the often outstanding locations in which they are hidden. Sometimes of course, you get the odd sicko out there who hides caches in difficult places just for the hell of it. These sorts of caches are often the most fun of all (well to some of us!). As you have said "Each method adds a challenge, and different people will rise to different challenges" - yeah for sure!

That's okay. I don't think I'll ever understand how anyone can enjoy being "nipple deep in an alligator & venomous snake infested swamp"... At night! Don't forget, it's in an alligator and snake infested swamp AT NIGHT!! I don't know about anyone else, but at night an armadillo can sound like a monstrous creature out to eat me. Alligators and poisonous snakes are beyond the pale. Carolyn I know! It sounds just so crazy that it's just GOT to be fun! It's only a pity we don't have alligators and poisionous snakes down here, or I'd be planning my next cache hide now

That's okay. I don't think I'll ever understand how anyone can enjoy being "nipple deep in an alligator & venomous snake infested swamp"... Are you kidding? These are just the sort of caches I live for!! Just goes to show how different we can be huh? And helps me appreciate that, yeah OK, maybe there are some genuine puzzle lovers out there who actually enjoy those nasty things.

Thanks for the offer Figures and Tonyward. Have either of you done the first leg of the North to South cache there yet (GCMYD6)? If you can grab the coordinates from that one, we can go out and bag both of the sister caches between us

So you're saying that there are people out there who actually enjoy doing puzzles. They set these ridiculously hard puzzles not just to show how clever they are, but for other like-minded cachers who actually enjoy them too (for whatever reason). And they like trying to solve them simply because it challenges them and is fun. Your analogy to the kayak style caches is a good one. This is good stuff - I am beginning to understand (although I don't think I'll ever understand how anyone can enjoy puzzles!). OK, point taken thanks Carolyn - strike out the elitism aspect to it

Well said. Thanks to everyone for their input - I actually feel much better about this topic now. Yes puzzles still annoy me, and as Boneman65 pointed out, they sometimes even smack of elitism. It's a shame that puzzle caches are lumped into the same category as mystery caches. To ignore this category entirely means you may miss out on some great mystery caches. It's also annoying that they take up potential cache hiding spots that you wouldn't know whether they were free or not unless you found them all first (or constantly bug your reviewer). But then multi's fit into this category too... but then multi's generally have a good reason for doing this, whereas puzzles (in my humble opinion) don't. But hey, who am I to complain if I simply don't understand them or enjoy them, when so many others obviously do?

You are definately one sick puppy!

Isn't that what the forums are for?

OMG - my idea of Hell! I am really surprised at the level of enthusiasm at this event. But then again, if you're that way inclined, I guess it would be a fun day - especially working as a team. If I went along, I'd be in the same boat as nancois: "Whew! I'm glad someone else had to solve all of those eeeevil puzzles. All I had to do was wander around and look busy. And eat cookies at the finish!"

I did this one (and its nearby sister cache GCMYD6) yesterday, after NZKEKO emailed me the final co-ords. First one to holler from NZ gets the co-ords for GCMYD6!! Thanks for the offer, but it's probably best that you pass them on to your kiwi partner NZKEKO. I'll give you a shout if I get stuck. Cheers, GG

This post should ruffle a few feathers... I know people go geocaching for so many different reasons. Some caches take you to wonderful new places. Some caches have very creative hides. Some challenge you physically. Some are just plain silly. But I simply can't understand the reason for using puzzles in geocaching. Obviously the idea of getting people stumped for some time before finally working out the solution (or not) fascinates some cache owners. Why do they do this? They're obviously not trying to encourage people to visit their cache, therefore the main reason for placing that cache is simply for the puzzles sake. Is this really what geocaching is all about? I simply find it annoying that I have to waste so much time trying to solve a puzzle before I can so much as step out the door to even start trying to find it. What does searching on Google actually have to do with geocaching? If I wanted to do a puzzle, I could simply buy a puzzle book and sit inside doing them all day long. Personally, I would much rather be spending my spare time outdoors, in new places, actually geocaching instead. Some of you out there may look at some of my caches I own and point out that many of them are physically challenging, and that is not what geocaching is about either. I disagree. For one thing, it challenges people to push their comfort zone a little. When they do that, they get a great feeling of accomplishment which can be very rewarding - both to the cacher, and to read about in the logs afterwards. And they take you to some incredible places; not to mention the push-play aspect to it all. I understand that some people like to do puzzles, and some don't. Some like to be physically active, and some don't. We're all different. However, the high terrain caches are always out in the boon-docks, miles away from any cities and spread far and wide. If you don't want to do them, then these caches are easy to ignore. Puzzle caches on the other hand are invariably scattered about all over town. If you don't solve them, they sit there - right in your face - taunting you. Even worse, if you don't solve all of them, you never know if any of the spots around town are free for a cache placement or whether they’ve already been taken by yet another puzzle. It’s got to the stage now where unless it’s a straight forward puzzle to solve, I’ll throw it straight on to the pile of unsolved puzzles cluttered on my local area list, out of principle, as much as my lack of patience and lousy puzzle solving abilities! The feedback I’ve received locally is that there appears to be a few cachers out there who actually enjoy(?) puzzle caches. But then, these are obviously the ones who are creating them. I’ve got no problem with that - we’re all different after all. However, the majority out there seem to dislike them at least as much as I do. How does everyone else feel about puzzle caches out there in the big world? And more importantly, are puzzle caches really in the spirit of geocaching? OK, time to run for cover...

I have located the New Zealand part of 'Over the Pole' (GCMYWH), so now have the co-ordinates for the UK part. It is located in the village of Finchampstead, Berkshire. If anyone from around that area is interested in partnering, please e-mail me. Cheers, GG

Wow, what a cool idea! I would be curious as to what the feedback would be like on the logs though - what was it called? The cache is Where's the log book, GC11MVV. A very popular cache. So after looking through the logs, I take it that there IS actually a log book there, but it's hidden somewhere else in the cache where you wouldn't expect to find it?