TundraChief SilverHare

Can't argue about Jeremy having the right to establish any policy his heart desires but I gotta wonder why the rationale isn't communicated better. We just completed "Images of Utah, GC47E4" which is a traveling virtual and without a doubt one of the funnest and most meaningful of all the caches we have done. Check it out and you will see why it has significant value.

Number Freaks. Placing Travel Bugs in nonexistent caches. Collecting and holding large numbers of bugs for ages. Destroying their missions. Causing many cachers to quit placing travel bugs. Pretensious transfers from cache to cache that really don't take place. Who needs this kind of "fun"? Who really cares? This topic is closed.

The saga continues. Today, Geo$ing reports dropping the following travel bugs in his cache "Outa Da Park." GCH3ET that no one has ever found. Travel Bugs have been seen in this cache - New Jersey LAND SHARK Dineaux The key to the cut up Sue the T-Rex Panic the Gargoyle Cash Bug The Racing Travel Bug Denali Cockroach Little Boy Geo Free to fly Route 66 Chicken Soup for the Sole Horsing Around Utah Gone To Look For America Iditarod Sadie VI Mountain Mickey Uglier than Dirt Bernie the Bored Beetle BAILEY the BOOZER Toof Fairy TB Cranberry Carabiner National Park Tourist There's No Place Like Home BLUE BEAR Itsy Bitsy Lady Bug Chip the Chip Ammon Ant The White Banshee Something really strange going on here. Is this in keeping with geocaching.com guidelines?

I gave up hope that my TB "Itsy Bitsy Ladybug" would ever surface after several illogical emails from Clean Up Crew. I don't believe the cache in the middle of Blue Mesa Reservoir was ever anything but a paper cache in the minds of its author. So, after sufficient down time I retired the TB to a final resting spot cache in the Great Salt Lake. No sooner had I done that and Geo$ing reported grabbing it from somewhere "High in the Rockies." From what I can tell that must be near Geo$ing's cache "Million Dollar Breeze." And, The above quotes close a big hole in the mystery of these lost TBs. Now, if we could just figure out if there is a relationship between Geo$ing and Clean Up Crew. Geo$ing, won't you tell us what you know?

This sport is fascinating and amusing in more ways than you can count!

I received two more emails from “Clean Up Crew” today. The first contained this message in answer to the question “Why did you place 28 Travel Bugs in a nonexistent cache?” That would seem to answer part of the question, but then a followup email added more unusual interest to this mystery. In part it said, Wow, this is quite a list of items for a cache. Can anyone top that? Left me wondering who S&R team is!

I received two email responses from "Clean Up Crew" today; he/she will answer yes or no questions but no conversation as such. In my last email I requested that he educate me: "Why did you place so many Travel Bugs in a non-existent cache"? No answer yet! A study of log entries for the twelve caches visited reveal that they were all visited in a two or three-day period in late October. That is when all the bugs disappeared. The TB entries were made some time later in November. The 21st I think! Strange.

Can anyone shed light on this situation: Clean Up Crew visits 12 caches and takes 28 bugs and places them into a nonexistent cache named "In Bugs and Booty". An email to Clean Up Crew asking the wherebouts of one of my bugs produces this response from H8tSpam@aol.com "It is on an island in the middle of Blue Mesa". There is no cache on the only island in Blue Mesa. A check of Clean Up Crews profile shows all 28 TBs placed in the same nonexistent cache. Appears to be a case of overt bug theft. Hope that is not the case. Some ones idea of a sick joke? Some of the absconded bugs have over 5000 mile histories. Shame for them to die in a nonexistent cache in Blue Mesa Reservoir!

I'm afraid the lights may be out at the ranch.

AhOH! Here we go again. Heaven help us.

Thank you CoAdmin. Now I feel warm. I have read the emails. Thanks for the clarification. Hope your health is better than mine.

Iv'e been doing a lot of lurking lately; searching the forums trying to see if there is anyone else out there having trouble getting their cache approved. SilverHare and I have been actively geocaching since early September when we were introduced to the sport while vacationing in the northern Wasatch mountains. We have around 180 finds and have placed two multcaches, one of which was submitted four days ago but has not been approved yet. We put a lot of effort into making a cache and we have received a lot of compliments on the one we did get approved. Just seems like four days is a long time to wait. Probably seems silly to some but we have been accused of being a little obsessive with this sport. I guess we would like to know from you all if this is the usual thing. Guess it is a priority issue and we need to be patient. Sure hope the Admins understand what kind of ownership some of us put into these things.

I love living in your world. It is not only fair, it is fun, honest and good natured. But, some of our opposition live in a different world. I remember a USFWS law enforcement agent telling me a story that is a little analogous to our situation here. He was posing “undercover” as a private hunter doing business with an illegal poaching guide for game that occupied an island in the Mississippi delta country. In the dark of night, in a small boat, too far from shore to swim, the poaching guide turned to our undercover cop and said, “Are you one of those blankityblank Federal Agents?” Now, how do you suppose the Federal agent, replied? “Can we establish a fair use policy here?” No, he lied through his nose. Later, the US Attorney served notice on the poachers, the agent, in blue suit, testified in court about his experience, and the poachers went to jail. These guys operate in a different world than we do. They are not naive, just hardened folk who operate on the basis of law. You don’t change their thinking by arguing fairness. It is all about law. “Kill all the lawyers.” That’s really sweet, and naive! Fairness is something you are supposed to do in parlor games and geocaching. Trouble is, some of these Federal Agents believe some geocachers are poachers.

Great work TH&G. I have your geotokan #811 from a cache near Grand Junction. I first became aware of you guys when looking at some caches we would like to do next summer up on the Sweetwater. Your mileage data are living proof of the economic importance of geocaching as a sport. Hope to cross trails with you someday as I feel an affinity having worked Wyoming three different times in my life. Happy caching.

Wow! No I realize why this geocaching stuff has aroused so much excitement that I thought was gone. Eagle scout, 1953, Order of the Arrow, 1955. On staff of Camp Steiner, 1955. Some of that powerful fun and memory stuff just won't go away. Spice of life!

If a Federal Agency initiated a policy restricting geocaching in its entirity on their managed lands, wouldn't this constitute a "Federal Action?" I agree with the overkill thing but, if an agency such as BLM or USFS were ever to do such a policy, NEPA is there to protect users such as geocachers to assure that all appropriate study and analysis has been considered.

Regarding Team 360 "Writing letters and making calls to your Congressman or elected official is a waste of their valuable time. They have far more important things to do than listen to people who want to play games in a Wildlife Preserve...Spend your time and energy on trying to help the people who live in this country who go hungry every night or have to sleep on the streets before worrying about where you can play geocaching." Two bits more. You can write letters to some underling bureaucrat in Washington D.C. until Hell freezes over and you will get nowhere. Don’t make the mistake of thinking they work from logic and can be persuaded by your friendship. They don’t give a dadgum about what you think. They only care about what management options can be implemented under the umbrella of NEPA (National Environmental Policy Act). Only a challenge to the legal basis of their actions has merit. Does the USFWS have the authority to outlaw virtual activities in public access areas of their refuges. While they will try the bureaucratic approach of trying to make you think so, they probably do not. Conceding on the placement of physical caches is one thing. To concede to their efforts to outlaw virtual caches is a dangerous thing to the sport. As to our elected representatives not having time to deal with geocaching. The sport is a legitimate recreational activity and should be considered as such, not just “a game.” Recreation has become the number one economic activity on many areas of the public domain and is part of the Federal budget process. You think this is not important to our elected officials? Come now, a little rethinking is in order here.

Every time I read the forum posts on this subject, my blood begins to boil. Geocaching is an activity that has it’s focus on creativity, education, and having fun. It’s volunteer leaders have done a commendable job in establishing an environmental ethic that is positive and helpful. It’s members represent a potential powerful political force. Many are educated and widely experienced retirees. Many others are practicing professionals. Others are, in the least, energetic and devoted to an active and earth-loving philosophy. Not a few of the devotees, are children in their formative years. Geocaching could become a force for good to any land managing agency if the right guidelines are established. The diatribe coming from the USFWS, as published by the forum, ignorantly recognizes none of this. It is ironic that a good portion of their budget is Congressionally earmarked to provide educational experiences for their client base-the public. Most refuges have visitor centers, mostly built on “virtual” displays to accommodate citizens. Lest we forget, geocachers are public citizens. This issue will increase in size and importance as the sport grows and is focused on by the public policy makers. It is vital to the future of this sport that positive policies be adopted by the various land managing agencies, when they do so, at all levels. The negative ones could set bad precedent. Any effort to influence public policy at the Federal level should be first directed to the Congressional delegations. When we write to our elected officials they usually pass the inquiry to the concerned Federal agency. The agencies, in turn, put their highest priority on answering Presidential and Congressional inquiries. They can’t ignore them. Groundspeak could make a Congressional inquiry to the rightfully selected individuals asking what the scientific basis for USFWS geocaching policy is based on, or, whether USFWS policy on geocaching is based on an Environmental Assessment, and if not, why not? I would like to see the USFWS response on that one, and you can bet it won’t be coming from some low lying refuge cop! Oh, by the way, Groundspeak, be sure and mention to the Congressperson the number of voting citizens who are involved with Geocaching. Also, a little chart showing the growth in the past three years would be helpful.