BeachBum22

Good stuff. If we all had a Rollatape, an old police car, and a roll of that yellow crime scene tape, I bet we could dispense with the silly ID cards and never have to worry about being questioned again

One additional point is that Found in the case of benchmarking does not necessarily mean actually finding a disk or a landmark (as opposed to the "rules" for signing a logbook in Geocaching), it means positively identifying the station, since it is the station that is of primary concern, and the mark is merely a means of representing it physically. Rich, I read your theory of station vs. mark the first time you posted it, but I guess I'm dense because it still doesn't sink in, even after reading the short version. If I recall correctly, the station, in your first post, is an imaginary point? Let me use an example, I think it will be easier for me to explain why I'm confused. I went looking for a benchmark that was in a sidewalk. Description said it was "x inches from the north edge of the sidewalk" and "xxx feet in yyy direction from the base of a statue". The sidewalk had recently been replaced. The disc was gone. The coordinates were "scaled" (useless). Statue is still there, but how close can I get with a measurement to a point over 100 feet away when I don't know the exact direction of the measurement (NNE isn't very exact), I don't know the exact point on the statue from which the measurement was taken, and I don't know if the new edge of the sidewalk is in the same place as the old edge of the sidewalk. Since it seems to me that the disc was the only representation of exactly where the "station" was, and now it's gone, I can't figure out how the "station" could still be there, or how it could be of any use to a surveyor because I can't find it without the disc. I can understand your theory of station vs. mark as it may apply today - if a mark was set with today's extremely accurate GPS surveying equipment, I would venture to guess that another surveyor could find the "station" using the same type of equipment even if the disc was gone, but I what I can't understand is how we can apply it to a mark set in 1903. Maybe you could point me to some reading material on the NGS web site that would help me to understand your theory. Thanks.

SPEED Each time this discussion starts, I think there is one fact that always seems to get overlooked. People who use this web site to log benchmarks come in all different speeds: Slow speed. Not really interested in looking for survey discs, but found one while looking for a cache, so logged it. Medium speed. Interested in looking for benchmarks, but not really interested in all the technical aspects or reporting things to the NGS. Fast speed. Interested in duplicating NGS standards, and very interested in the technical aspects of survey markers. Not to mention a whole bunch of speeds in between. Which is as it should be, I think. People attack any tasks at different speeds. You are correct in stating that the 'basic' information here is very basic. I had the same problem, but I managed to get to the speed that I was interested in on my own, as the information is readily available elsewhere, and there are people who participate in the forums here who are very willing to answer questions. So any speed can be reached, it's just a matter of how much effort one wants to make to reach it. It seems to me, after reading these forums for a while, that the people who are interested in fast speed are a very small minority of the overall group who has logged benchmark finds here. Maybe that's my imagination, but that's the feeling I get. Benchmark hunting is, as far as this web site is concerned, is an off spin of geocaching. I don't geocache, but I would imagine that most people who do look at it as a casual hobby. That's the way I look at benchmark hunting. A hobby. I want to understand the basics of the NGS system, so I got myself up to (my) speed. I don't want to submit pictures or reports to the NGS and I feel it's a very bad idea to encourage everyone here to do that, so I feel the current level of separation between Geocaching.Com's benchmark hunting pages and the NGS is as it should be. We have some people who submit extremely professional reports here. But we also have people who submit reports that would be a total waste of the NGS's time if they were submitted for review. NGS is probably like any other government agency - they probably have limited funding and not enough people, so burying them in useless amateur benchmark reports probably wouldn't make them happy. In a nutshell, I think it's good that anybody who wants to move to the 'professional' level has to do some homework on their own to get there, because I think it will result in a much higher level of quality of information that is submitted to NGS. So as far as your idea of making this site compatible to NGS, I vote no, I don't think it's necessary or a good idea. COUNTING I'm personally not interested in bean counting (or logging stuff I don't find here) so I abstain on the vote for changing what gets counted. I don't care either way..... LINK TO CURRENT NGS DATASHEETS From a technical standpoint, very easy to do. Would take less than five minutes. Has been suggested before. Long time ago. Still hasn't been done. I'm not privy to any inside information, so I don't know why not. But I can speculate on why not....... The owners of this web site don't seem to place a very high priority on benchmark hunting. Which is probably as it should be, because there are probably a lot more people interested in geocaching than benchmark hunting. Designing, coding, and maintaining a web site of this quality is not a spare time job. It would be very easy to link to the off site information in the NGS database. But doing so has some inherent problems. The people who code Geocaching.Com are obviously interested in providing a quality site that doesn't 'break'. When you depend on off site links to external data, you assume the risk of 'breaking' your site when the site with the external data breaks. And you have no control of the external site, so you can't fix it if it does break. That may be one of the factors explaining why it hasn't been implemented here. The NGS server is SLOW. I'm aware of that as I use links to the NGS database from my web site. A page with an NGS datasheet on it takes about four to five times as long to serve as a page from my site (from my server) does. Any web designer who is interested in capturing and keeping an audience is critically aware of the speed factor. I'm not, as my personal web sites are just hobbies, but that's not the case here. That may be another one of the factors explaining why it hasn't been implemented here. So the answer to current NGS datasheets is that yes, it's easy to do, but there very well may be some good reasons not to do it. It's also very easy to go get the information from the NGS site yourself - anyone who realizes that the data here is dated (and since we've had this discussion before I'm sure most of us do) can simply go get it directly from NGS. I haven't done much benchmark hunting lately because it's fishing season, but when I was doing it every day I found the info on the NGS site much more useful for assembling neccessary data prior to hunting, so I got it there instead of here. Replace the zip code search here with a county search at NGS, grab all the datasheets, and away you go.... Another key factor that seems to get overlooked every time this discussion rolls around is that of the interest level in benchmark hunting by the owners of Geocaching.Com. If they aren't interested, we can discuss changes until we turn blue, and they won't happen. On the other hand, they may have some big plans for the future that we aren't aware of. I think it would be nice if the Admin Guy could drop by and let us know which is which. But when you think about it, it's a no win situation for them to even comment - if they tell us "What you have is all you are going to get" we get mad and go away. If they tell us "We have big plans for the future" we'll bug them to death until they happen.....

Here's a couple pictures of one of the replica markers that Berntsen sells: Replica Marker

Roger, it's time we get you automated, so we did. You can get your numbers when you get home from Thanksgiving here: Roger's Automatic Numbers The program is running on a remote computer that I don't monitor, so if it breaks let me know and I'll jump start it for you. Times/dates are eastern time zone. It will give you a new count every time it changes. We can also clear the file at the end of every month if you'd like. Don't eat too much turkey.

There's a 2001 entry in the current NGS data sheet that doesn't appear in the data sheet here at GC.Com. Link to current JT0247 datasheet It says "....disk has been removed". Also says the stamping is supposed to be "NO 4 1937". So I'd guess the one you found isn't JT0427. Maybe it's a reset of JT0427 that never got logged with the NGS when it was reset. Or maybe since it's in a different location, it got a new PID assigned when it moved. But I can't find a new PID.... If you do a search on the NGS website for tidal benchmarks within a half mile radius of JT0427, you don't find anything new, but you will find a note at the bottom when you ask for the datasheets which lists an "X" for JT0427 to indicate it's been destroyed. So looks like you found a Certified Mystery Marker BeachBum22 http://www.benchmarkhunting.com Just because I can't find it doesn't mean it's not really there.

Do road construction crews just destroy them without telling anyone? I'm in an area where there's been a lot of development in the last ten years and lots of the markers I've looked for are MIA also. I've found some that are obviously destroyed, and whomever destroyed them didn't tell the NGS as they are still in the database with no comments. Always in areas with new construction - sidewalks replaced, culvert head wall gone, replaced by underground pipes, etc. But I always look two or three times before I give up on a marker and write it off as MIA. As someone else pointed out, the descriptions on the NGS datasheets can be confusing, so a fresh start sometimes results in finding one that was not found on a previous trip. BeachBum22 http://www.benchmarkhunting.com Just because I can't find it doesn't mean it's not really there.

Apologies. The record was deleted in order to add/change some of the information in the description and photo captions, and I didn't want that crappy edit notice on it. Don't apologize. You get a Gold Star. Programmers love it when you tell them exactly what's wrong, because it's much easier for them to fix. Here's the bug: 1. User creates benchmark log. 2. User uploads pictures. 3. User deletes benchmark log. 4. User recreates benchmark log. I'm guessing you didn't delete all the pictures before you deleted the log? The original pictures in the gallery are linked to URL parms that no longer exist (&ID &L) and point to an invalid record in the db: /mark/log_details.asp?start=312&PID=LY2803&ID=59074&L=57988 so they should have been deleted (by the software) when the original log was deleted. New log is: /mark/log_details.asp?start=216&PID=LY2803&ID=59177&L=58093 BeachBum22 http://www.benchmarkhunting.com Just because I can't find it doesn't mean it's not really there.

The bug with the gallery appears to be back. http://www.geocaching.com/mark/benchmark_album.asp?start=288 If you click any of the LY2803 links or pictures, with IE you get a "problem with the page..." error, and with NS you get what appears to be an SQL error message: "ADODB.Field error '800a0bcd' Either BOF or EOF is True, or the current record has been deleted. Requested operation requires a current record. /mark/log_details.asp, line 91" Too many pictures, Rich, you broke the db BeachBum22 http://www.benchmarkhunting.com Just because I can't find it doesn't mean it's not really there.

Rather than update gc.com files, the gc.com PID datapage could contain everything except the description....... That would be the way to get datasheets, pull the current one from NGS web site in real time. It's very easy to do, I do it on my web site (Sample). Not much sense in keeping a db of datasheets because they change frequently. Problem is this web site would still need a database with PIDS, coordinates, etc. to generate the other things people want, like lists of benchmarks in a particular area. Be nice if the NGS web site had a simple list of PIDS by state/whatever that you could work from, but they don't seem to have that option. Updating fifty states would be much simpler than 3,015 counties. It would be a large undertaking to duplicate the NGS data and keep it current. BeachBum22 http://www.benchmarkhunting.com Just because I can't find it doesn't mean it's not really there.

Have no fear, my friend. There will always be a place for mediocrity in this world. And even though the world has people who spend thirty minutes a day making sure they put their socks on the right foot, there will still be room for those of us who have a lifestyle that doesn't require socks....... BeachBum22 http://www.benchmarkhunting.com Just because I can't find it doesn't mean it's not really there.

Maybe when the log got deleted, the pictures didn't, I don't know, but the KS0445 pictures are still in the gallery, with broken links: http://www.geocaching.com/mark/benchmark_album.asp?start=264 Click thru a few pages if you can't find them, they're moving up the list. Probably something the admin guys would want to look at..... BeachBum22 http://www.benchmarkhunting.com Just because I can't find it doesn't mean it's not really there.

Maybe the admin guys see things here sooner than they do if you send them email.... The cache pictures are gone from the benchmark gallery page, but there still seems to be a problem with logs. In the gallery, there are two pictures of KS0445 from a log by BackPak. If you click either of the KS0445 links, or either of the pictures, you get a "page can not be displayed" error. Also if you look up KS0445 by PID, you see no log/pictures from BackPak (or anyone else). BeachBum22 http://www.benchmarkhunting.com Just because I can't find it doesn't mean it's not really there.

If you notice, the 404 pictures aren't benchmark pictures, they are Geocache pictures. Looks like the Geocache photos are getting mixed up with the benchmark stuff. I sent an email to the admin people about three days ago to let them know there's a problem, so they should be aware of it. It seems to have happened when they updated the "Log a Cache" page. See the Geocaching Announcements forum for info. BeachBum22 http://www.benchmarkhunting.com Just because I can't find it doesn't mean it's not really there.

The only way you can log it here is by PID, the ID number assigned to it. The marker may have a stamping on it (name, numbers, date, etc.) and you might be able to find it by searching the NGS database. LINK Many markers are not in the NGS database, and have no PID assigned. If you have found one that is not in the database, you can't log it on the GC.com web site. If you post some more info (or a picture) of the marker, someone here might be able to help you identify it. BeachBum22 http://www.benchmarkhunting.com Just because I can't find it doesn't mean it's not really there.

I had a Vista for a week, sent it back and got a Map76S. Liked the Vista, but screen too small and very hard for me (old eyes) to read. Map76S has more features (beeping keys, setup, etc.) and also an external antenna connection - and I use an external antenna almost all the time. Map76S probably physically too big for anybody who's doing mountain climbing or hiking but great for in the car. BeachBum22 http://www.benchmarkhunting.com Just because I can't find it doesn't mean it's not really there.

I think an ID card is a good idea. But along with the card, I think you need to be ready to explain what you're doing when asked. Usually I tell people one of three things: 1. "The government sent me to dig up your yard." 2. "There's a Radon leak in the immediate vicinity and I'm trying to find it before more people die". 3. "I work for the gas company, and what I'm doing could cause a major explosion, so I'd suggest you stay as far back as possible". When that doesn't work, I just show them a picture ID card I had made at the local graphics place. BeachBum22 http://www.benchmarkhunting.com Just because I can't find it doesn't mean it's not really there.

Works here too. Maybe you have a hosed cookie, try logging off the web site and logging back on again, if it's a cookie maybe that'll fix it. BeachBum22 http://www.benchmarkhunting.com Just because I can't find it doesn't mean it's not really there.

Bumped into this while looking at the photo gallery. SC2659 I think what has been logged twice is RM 1, not SC2659, judging from the "1" on the picture, and the text that references RM 1 as being set in a sidewalk curb (not an 8" concrete pipe) which is verified by another picture of a sidewalk. If you read the text of the NGS sheet, it says that in 1958 the station was destroyed and the disc was mailed back to the NGS. Question is, if the station is gone, why is the data sheet not gone too? Are the reference markers of any use to a surveyor even though the main mark is gone? BeachBum22 http://www.benchmarkhunting.com Just because I can't find it doesn't mean it's not really there.

The USPS isn't the only group who doesn't find things. This benchmark was "not found and presumed destroyed" by the Florida Department of Natural Resources, but then found later. Lucky for me, whoever it was that DID find it added a nice witness post which made it really easy for me to find.... It's hard to fault any "not found" reports because you don't know what the conditions and surroundings were ten years ago when someone else didn't find it. That's probably why the NGS has such strict rules concerning "destroyed" benchmarks. BeachBum22 http://www.benchmarkhunting.com Just because I can't find it doesn't mean it's not really there.

I see your point, Rich, and I understand what you'd like to see happen with benchmark hunting. But from what I see here, I'm not sure this is the place to try and make it happen. I don't know why GC.com was born. But I can guess. Probably one of two reasons. Either the person who owns the web site was an avid Geocacher and it was born for fun, or it was born in the hopes of making a profit. Nothing wrong with either motivation, but web sites that are born for fun and discovered by the masses quickly turn into a financial burden because internet bandwidth, P4 boxes, software, and programming time aren't free. So unless the owner is financially independent, the only way to keep them going is to attract more of the masses in the hope of generating the funding necessary to do so. The "fun" quickly turns into a "job" when the masses arrive. And we all know what usually happens to standards when the masses show up.... I'm not sure the owner of this web site was ever interested in benchmark hunting, my guess would be that the limited section devoted to it was put here in an effort to attract a few more people in the hopes they would help support the bandwidth. The database is two or three years old. The information here about benchmarks (other than what's in this forum) is very limited. In the short time I've been here, I've seen a number of things in this forum addressed to the "admin" of the web site, but I've not seen one posting from them in response. Yes, there is a small group of people here who are obviously interested in "standards" and "professionalism" but I seriously doubt the owner of the web site (and the majority of benchmark loggers) are included in that group. I think the submission of reports to the NGS and submission of benchmark logs to GC.com are two vastly different things, and I also think that if you attempt to apply the NGS standards here it will disperse the masses, not attract them. When I suggested you use the current NGS datasheets and do your logging there, I wasn't suggesting that you become the Lone Ranger of Benchmark Hunting, I was trying to say that the NGS web site is the only place currently available where standards and professionalism apply. But I still feel that a four page recovery log and eight pictures of an orange rock would put the even the most professional of surveyors to sleep. We are definitely both on the same wavelength when it comes to Geocaching - if I want to find a thousand plastic 35mm film canisters, I'll go look in the garbage can in the photo department at Walmart, not out in the woods. Good luck with getting the "admin" interested. BeachBum22 http://www.benchmarkhunting.com Just because I can't find it doesn't mean it's not really there.

....really needs some immediate attention. Administrators, are you listening?! Oh, and does anyone know when the database is going to be updated??? Sorry, Rich. I thought the above meant you were "yelling at the webmaster". But English is a second language to me, so maybe I misunderstood it. So what, pray tell, is it you're trying to look like if not professional? We are obviously here for different reasons. I'm not trying to "look like" anything. I don't carry a clipboard or wear my badge from work to try and look "professional" when I'm benchmark hunting. If somebody asks what I'm doing, I don't make up official stories, I simply tell them the truth - that it's one of my hobbies to find and photograph survey markers. I'm having fun finding survey markers, and it doesn't matter to me if they are in the NGS database or not, or if I can log them on this web site or I can't. I'm enjoying learning the basics about benchmarks, that's why I read what's going on here. Not because I want to be a surveyor when I grow up, but so I can explain to the lady who's yard I'm digging up that I'm looking for a tidal benchmark. Benchmark hunting is just a hobby, something to do in my free time, whatever, but certainly not something I would use in the same sentence with the word professional. It fits in with my other hobbies - digital photography, web site design, running around the beach, learning to use a GPS in the boat. That's why I got interested, not because I ever had any aspirations of becoming a professional surveyor. ...what's the point of having the benchmarking website in the first place? I assumed it had the same purpose as the Geocaching part of the web site - another activity related to GPS usage and the great outdoors. Another twist for the GPS hobby people to participate in. When I look thru the gallery and read some of the logs, I seem to see different reasons that people log benchmarks here. "It's my first 14'er". From someone who's into mountain climbing. "Found it while looking for the bla bla cache". From somebody who's out looking for Geocaches. So the web site, as is, may not suit your purposes because you are striving to be more professional in your reports, but it definitely suits others, and it's obvious that everyone here (me included) is not striving to be professional. Some of us are just having fun. To be perfectly honest with you, Rich, I enjoyed the brief log and pictures from the top of the 14,000 foot peak a lot more than I enjoy looking at a witness post from four different angles and reading about second order vertical controls and what street names have changed in the last ten years. One sounded like an adventure. The other sounded like a job. I guess I'm just an adventure kinda guy.... BeachBum22 http://www.benchmarkhunting.com Just because I can't find it doesn't mean it's not really there.

Obviously the people in the U.S.P.S. don't all suck.. LINK to story. BeachBum22 http://www.benchmarkhunting.com Just because I can't find it doesn't mean it's not really there.

Without some attention to the details—get rid of the "skull" bug, update the database, develop a consistent standard for logging these marks (not necessarily one that's in line with the Geocaching found/not found paradigm)—we're all going to look as amateurish as the U.S. Power Squadron. It's easy to yell at the webmaster when you aren't familiar with what's involved. And please don't forget that all of us aren't trying to look professional.... If you click around on the NGS web site, you'll see that they no longer offer benchmark data sheets on CD. This is because you can get them online at the the NGS web site. One county at a time, if you are lucky and the server doesn't time out..... There are 3,000+ counties in the U.S. - so all the webmaster here has to do is download them all, one at a time, and update his database here. Whoppie. That should only take 15 minutes, huh? And when he does that, the good news is that the next day, his data is old because he's obviously not getting updates. The gist of things here lately seems to be that a lot of people are interested in donating information to the NGS, and that's good. But you don't need Geocaching.Com to do that, unless the hidden agenda is that we are really more interested in peer recognition than we are in donating our time and photos to the NGS. Go to the NGS web site and download all the CURRENT data sheets you want, go find the benchmarks, report what you've found with pictures to the NGS, and don't worry about the ones you can't log here. It's really doesn't make sense to use data sheets from anywhere BUT the NGS web site, because they are constantly updated. All GC.com really needs is a list of PID's, and the data sheets could be pulled in real time from the NGS server and would always be current. But I don't think the NGS has a list of PID's on CD either. The job of updating the database here is a lot more time consuming than most people here seem to realize. BeachBum22 http://www.benchmarkhunting.com Just because I can't find it doesn't mean it's not really there.

A WAAS system under excellent conditions might meet the 3m standard. I don't know about the rest if you guys, but I haven't seem my "accuracy" figure go into single digits yet. With WAAS on and an external antenna, I'd guess the average I see is 9 feet. The lowest that I've noticed was below 6 feet, 5.9 I think. BeachBum22 http://www.benchmarkhunting.com Just because I can't find it doesn't mean it's not really there.