Mark 42
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Posts posted by Mark 42
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My point is that the dictionary definition is valid, and can be brought to court and
admitted as expert opion type evidence.
Basically, there really is no such thing as a "Legal Definition", and the burden
of proof falls upon the prosecution. By presenting authoritative definitions
into which a Geocache cannot fit as "litter", you can show that it is not litter.
Same holds true for "abandoned".
You have to not only know your rights, you have to stand up for them.
But if you ask a park ranger if it'd be okay to place a cache, and
he has never been told it's okay, what is the path of least resistance
(and risk) for him... simple: "No, you can't put stuff in the park
and leave it there".
Yes, there will occasionally be a reasonable person in authority who says
"Sure, that sounds like a fun way to enjoy YOUR park", but I would
rather just not even mention the cache, and hide it where no one will
even no that it exists, unless he is a Geocacher.
And, if someone did accidently find it, and then report it, and they
tried to prosecute me for litterring (after using the voluntarily provided
contact info in the cache), they had better do their homework... because
I can show that it is not litter, and can point to enough evidence that
it is not litter, that they cannot meet the burden of proof.
Now, if they use the contact info and ask me to come and remove it,
then I will do so and will find another place that needs a cache where
a cache would be welcomed, but at the same time, probably would
work to get the policy changed.
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Mark42,
Maybe you missed the post about judges NOT using the dictionary definition of 'litter'? My guess is that they also would not use the dictionary definition of 'abandoned'.
They go by the legal definition. Please add links to those.
If you don't know what the legal definition of litter is, why challenge
the dictionary definition? If you want to dispute the definition I found,
go find a link or provide the text of the legal definition.
I searched for such a definition, and was not able to find one other
than on an Australian site, which leads me to believe that the courts
are quite likely to be using the dictionary definition. I don't think there
is a legal definition for every word in existence.. sometimes it is considered
self evident, and the dictionary could be presented as evidence. Even if
there were a legal definition, other siurces can be used to challenge
such a definition. From what I have found in the research I've done,
it appears that each court may have its own definition (e.g. Santa Monica
in the link below) and to argue that the dictionary definition is "incorrect"
in a courtroom makes no sense, since there is variation from state
to state and even county to county or city to city. Therefore, in court,
one could present various "legal" definitions, show the variation, and
then posit that Webster's dictionary is (inter)nationally recognized as
authoritative as to meanings of words, and offers better accuracy and
consistancy.
I'll ask an attorney friend of mine if he has a legal definition for
litter, but I'm really doing your homework for you:
Here is the only link I could find:
http://www.santa-monica.org/municode/codem...e_7/48/010.html
http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/recycling/resea.../definition.htm
http://www.epa.nsw.gov.au/litter/litterlaw...ws.htm#expanded
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I really think you guys are stiring something up here you might wish you didnt. I'd be willing to bet that when asked, these people are gonna take the easy way out and say no, then theres no liability on their part...
Good summary
If geocaching causes you to violate other rules (like if there
is a rule to stay on the trails, for example), it will get noticed.
Otherwise, it wil rarely cause concern to most reasonable authorities
if the even become aware that it is occurring.
An item is not Abandoned if the owner leaves a note with instructions
for how to contact him if any questions arise.
An item that is carefully placed, and not deliberately discarded is not Litter
(You can click the above words for a definition)
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No tailgate problems... I think there may be holesdrilled in the
bottom of the gate to drain water. I'll have to check, and add
them. I had heard something about rust, but you make it sound
more common of a problem than the impression I had.
I can paint the bottom inside the gate too, which may be a good
idea. I recently lubed the window regulator, and started with WD-40
(actually John Deere's spray lube, which is better IMHO).
There is a centurion Yahoo Group, and they tend to find the
ones for sale and post them. They show up on eBay occasionally too.
So far, I like the truck (except the extra foot of wheelbase compared
to my old Suburban). I'll like it even more when I get 39.5 tires, ditch
the running boards, and put a big roof rack on it, and a bunch of other
stuff like bumpers, winch, nerf bars...
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I put almost 200,000 miles on my Toyota 4X4 ('81), and sold it to my
nephew. It had over 300,000 when he sold it to an uncle on his wife's
side of the family, and last I heard it still runs fine.
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... the ol' 1985 Toyota 4x4 took some damage from the tree. I just sold the truck about two months ago. I called it the "Storm Buggy", as it had all kinds of damage from getting too close to the action on several occasions.
And it probably still ran great and was more reliable than any other car made!
(If it'd been struck by lightning you could've named it sparky)
Someone should Photoshop that jeep to yellow, and submit it to the Yellow Jeep
Fever locationless cache. Maybe add a Gecaching Bumper Sticker
and slip anammo can under the rear bumper.
Or email it to me (after the color change) and I'll submit it along with my find when
I get one (I know where one is, but I can't take a camera to work with me,
so I have to wait until I am off on a normal work day and do a drive by).
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I want one of these:
But this is what we have, and it will do for now:
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Every now and then I find a map, or some image that has text as part of it,
and even just jpeg compression can make text illegible.
Freedom is good when used responsibly.
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I'd like to see a link to the "Upload an image" page (URL Below) which
is also where you can get to your images to see them and arrange them
or find the URL to use in a post on the forums.
http://www.geocaching.com/upload/account_images.asp
Also, It'd be nice if paid subscriptions included a larger image size
allowable (maybe 250 k or thereabouts?).
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Geocaching in Seattle requires a decent set of foulies.
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I'm not sure if it's a good or bad thing, but I agree with you Criminal.
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Where can you buy a $10K jeep?
For $30K I can get a 4X4 truck and build it at least as
capable as if I spend $30K on a jeep.
Jeeps are good, but they aren't any better than other 4X4s.
I can get a 5 year old Toyota 4Runner and make it more capable
than any Jeep for about $15K. You could make a Jeep as capable,
but you'd spend a lot more.
Jeeps are like Harleys... way overrated by a bunch of people who
think that the logo somehow enhances performance.
Though Harleys have one statistic that other bikes can't match...
90% of the Harleys sold are still on the road...
the other 10% made it back home.
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I want to get my $0.02 in before this thread gets closed...
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=litter
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=abandoned
Did you check if Frisbee throwing is legal the last time you were
in a public park, and so inclined?
If it doesn't say that you can play soccer in a park, would
you really go find an authority figure to ask?
Did you obtain a hunting license the last time you swatted a mosquito?
Public land belongs to the public.
That's me.
I hereby grant permission to anyone who wants to place a cache on my public land.
I'm so sick of having to ask the government every time I feel flatulence coming on.
For gawd's sake, you can't even cut your grass without a permit these days.
I can't even buy a new car w/o airbags because of all the jerks
that think they should protect me from every type of risk in
existence.
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It's an overpriced thing.
Jeeps are good vehicles, but for their increased simplicity (far less
complex than most cars) you pay more.
Let's see... you want me to pay a whole lot extra for less... sure.
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Too bad it wasn't a Yellow Jeep
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I may have the only picture of a Washington State quarter...
if they select my artwork as the design (judging is in 2005).
Hope there's an ammo box somewhere in your picture
Yeah, there is, but you can't see it.
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I can see my kids asking things like "What does he mean by "Kissing Butt""Like the old saying goes, "Like an a**hole we all have an opinion".and whas does A**H... spell?
Kissing the Devil's butt sounds like another way to get burned.
We all have different opinions of what should be censored (censorship is not inherently bad, when it is used sparingly, evenly, and appropriately
I have to disagree. As the one who started this topic, (Idea for moderators: How about only responding to complaints.) I would consider this totally on topic. The way I took that post was that it, in the spirit of this thread topic, was a light-hearted way to point out that in addition to Admins beeing a bit too quick to Edit, Move, Delete, and Lock posts &/or message threads, they are also issuing warnings at a somewhat low threshold of tolerance.My advice to Admin.Ixnay on the WarningAy to me. Ay?
I know I am a stinker, but have a sense of humor.
The subject of this topic is whether forum moderation should be proactive or reactive. Thus, an appeal of the warning level assessed to your individual account is off-topic
I suppose that my "Warn 0%" might change, but in the words of aviation
pioneer Otto Lillienthal (on his deathbed after a crash) "Sacrifices must be made".
I get tired of many good threads getting locked way too often.
If there were another Geocaching BBS that someone else was running with less "Guidance", I'd probably spend more time reading the forum, and would eventually spend most of my forum time on it. But that would split the group, and would become cumbersome. A concensus or compromise would be the best solution. Striking the right balance between freedom and management is the best solution, but I don't think that has been accomplished yet.
If a thread drifts of subject, leave it. It may lead down an interesting path.
Someone said that would make it difficult for others to find certain subject material... there is a search engine for the forums, and the new BBS software (which I'm familiar with) has a search feature that works pretty well.
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WHO YOU CALLIN' SIMPLE!!! 
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How about only responding to complaints.
Instead of looking for trouble, wait for someone to report it.
Not everyone gets offended when someone calls them paranoid,
refers to their heritage, uses a bad word like "Darn", or strays
off topic. There is a thing called "Context", and it needs much
more consideration in the moderation.
It's starting to feel like there are traffic cams at every intersection
to send you a citation even if you are a usecond late going through
a yellow light.
Moderating means listening to what people are saying, and helping
keep the peace, not cleansing every message thread of any perceived
potential violation of the guidelines.
Or maybe someone else could start a forum with less strict enforcement
of the "Guidelines".
(Just an FYI: I have not had any posts deleted, moved or editted,
I just don't like what I see happening to others).
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I think that WWW.GEOCACHING.COM as far more innocuous looking
tha just GEOCACHE.
The idea of something like "Congratulations, you found it" sounds
good, maybe something like "GPS Treasure Hunt" or something of
the sort.
It's probably better to use large colors with low contrast (like
a lighter green or gray) than to use small characters (if you
are concerned about it being too obvious and easy to find).
1/2 and 1 gallon water jugs work great, and are less threatening.
My wife has found four of them for under $2 (most were on sale for
99 cents) in a thrift store. You can paint them gray, or dark green.
Also, if you buy nuts (cashews... but peanut containers are bigger)
at a place like Costco, Sam's Club, or Price Club they come in a
clear plastic container with a screw on lid, and they are about
3 quarts to a gallon in volume. I hate to part with the ones that
I have for in my shop though (clear plastic airtight containers!).
I like putting spray glue, or cheap paint on and rolling them in the dirt.
I got pretty positive comments on this type of cammo job on This cache
You could also glue leaves, or random pieces of cloth to the container
to cammouflage it.
Here's a picture of the one at the cache above:
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Are they Guidelines, or are they Rules?
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I was wondering about something similar...
If I can get the URL for a MO cache, if I bookmark it, and log
off... and then if my wife logs onto her account, what will
happen if she tries to go to the URL directly?
I don't really care for Members Only caches.
I can see offering other perks, like ability to store larger images,
maybe a bit of space to stor sound files and such for a cache page,
and perhaps a discount on merchandise... but I prefer caches be
open to everyone.
One More Time
in General geocaching topics
Posted · Edited by Mark 42
A lot does have to do with which judge you get, but you can appeal.
The burden of proof is still on the prosecution... that's why if you
contest a ticket, and the officer doesn't show, they dismiss your
charges. The level of doubt required to get a not guilty is a bit
higher in civil stuff, but they still have to prove your guilt.
A cop can't just come in and say "I said he was speeding, that's
good enough". He has to state what he saw, why he is qualified to
interpret what he saw, and what other information there is (evidence)
and how it was obtained, by whom, and the qualifications of the
observer (a lot of this involves the defendant asking for the info).
Technically, the burden of proof is on the prosecution.
Practiacally though (in real life) you have to prove your
innocence by disputing & discrediting the evidence presented
against you.
If asked to define Geocaching, it would not be embarassing at
all. Many terms are not in the dictionary... but that doesn't
mean they don't exist, or that there is something wrong with them.
This also does not make a credible dictionary with over 100 years
of experience any less credible or authoritative as a source
for defining other terminology. If the dictionary definition
supplements and meshes with (refines) the legal definition,
it would be admissable as evindence. If the two definitions
cannot coexist, then you would have a problem.
Ultimately, (once again agreeing with you) if a judge decides
you are guilty because... let's say... he hates your flannel shirt,
you are pretty well screwed... but you do have a right to a jury
trial, and to an appeal... it just depends how badly you want to
win, whether for the long term outcome, or just on principle.
But in many cases in history, after enough people fight hard
enough based on principle, change actually has occurred,
but seldom very quickly.