Mark 42

Here's mine... BTW, I too am a scientist who enjoys occasionally being artistic... I entered a design in the Washington State Quarter selection process... when it's up to be voted on (if they select it for the next stage) I'll let y'all know. If you like it you can even vote for it. "I'm not Responsible... just ask my wife, She'll confirm it"

It's all a matter of the description... If you honestly characterize what the searcher should expect, and you don't do anything deliberately misleading (like wrong coords), then I think making it extremely callenging is fair play. Just warn people that it's going to be extremely difficult, and why (rugged terrain, well hidden, unexpected placement, etc) "I'm not Responsible... just ask my wife, She'll confirm it"

I ahve been in a coal mine, and received self rescue training (I'm even certified in use of the self rescue unit by the mining bureau). But, know, I wouldn't go very deep into a cave. But I would expect the odds of encountering bad air (methane, C02, etc.) probably are not very high for the short distances that I would go into a cave without getting someone with proper training to escort be. I seriously doubt I'd go more than 100 yds, even if it looked like it wouldn't be a problem to continue, unless I saw a lot of footprints (coming out ) BTW, how do you know I don't play well with others... "I'm not Responsible... just ask my wife, She'll confirm it"

No, just well prepared. I had a cave on my land in Alabama. I always wanted to go in and check it out, but the entrance had partially collapsed many years earlier, so it would have been a tight squeeze. I didn't feel safe trying to go in, in spite of many years of outdoor experience, including rock climbing. So, I contacted the local speleoligical society, and was going to have them come out and have a look, and help me go in with their guidance. Unfortunately, my job went away and I had to transfer to Seattle before I could make the arrangements with the (coordinating schedules). If my nephews had been visiting, I might not have waited. They are also experienced outdoorsmen, and we probably would have taken three of four of us in together to see if we could find an entrance. Would have used a guideline and spooled it out so we could follow it back out and not get lost. I know GPS won't work underground. There's this new thing... called humor... I personally have gone six hours in just a pair of shorts, a tee shirt, and running shoes in sub 45 degree temperatures. The notion that a person who is an experienced outdoorsman will be overcome by hypothermia in an hour or two in 45 to 50 degree conditions is ludicrous. In 45 to 50 degree water... that's a whole different animal. I'll match my survival skills against anyone's. I seriously doubt that exploring a cave is a high risk activity for a person with common sense and outdoor experience... even if he's not an elite "cave expert". It's all a matter of knowing when it's time to turn around, and making provisions to do so. Whether it's riding motorcycles into the woods, rock climbing, spelunkering, hiking, or going into the tornado strewn mess that your kids call "their room". I was 12 yrs old when I got certified as a scuba diver (NASDS)... there were only a few things that weren't common snse. You can now go on a dive in the carribbean after a 1 hour classroom instruction session. My wife did this... and I don't recommend it unless you are a person who is very comfortable in and under the water, and are pretty well versed in general marine safety. I ended up spending most of the dive holding the hand of a panicked student. My wife was uncomfortable under the water with unfamiliar equipment. But, when I was 12, I had been sailing, snorkeling, surfing, and swimming for a few years already, so once I learned about air embolism and bottom times to avoid decompression, I was ready to (and did) strap on a tank and make bubbles. I never had a moment of fear. Other people have to get used to swimming with the extra drag of the tank, breathing underwater, and being surrounded by marine life. I took to it immediately, but not everyone does. When I learned to hang glide, I took to it almost immediately. When it got too windy to continue prctice flights on the sand dune, we were told to walk the gliders down to the bottom of the hill. I asked the instructor "Can I fly it down?". He'd seen how at home I was in the air (including high altitude dual instruction), so for me he made an exception. I think he knew that if I had got into lift, I would have just flown until I got out in front of the hill where there is no lift, and landed. My point is everyone is different. Some people who may never have been in a cave would be perfectly safe in one anyways. They have had enough situations in life to know what they can handle, and will back down before they get in over their heads. And, sometimes they will mis judge. I'm sure even the best trained spelunkerers are guilty of this. That is when you draw on common sense, logic, and other life experiences to figure out what action will work to get back to safety. "I'm not Responsible... just ask my wife, She'll confirm it" [This message was edited by Mark 42 on September 03, 2003 at 12:56 PM.]

See, if thy'd been Geocachers they could've used that GPS bactrack feature! 50 Degrees ain't all that cold. At 45 to 50 degrees you'd probably die of dehyrdation first. Anyone who can't limp a few miles on a broken ankle shouldn't leave the comfort of his living room. Tighten up your bootlaces and keep up the pace, ya wimp! Hell, I had a friend walk two miles on a shattered foot in flip-flops and not go to the doctor until two days later (didn't know it was broken). Caving is not an extreme sport. The risk is relatively low compared to many other sports. And the notion that firefighters or other rescue teams would stand at the mouth of a cave and whimper and call the local Grotto to affect the rescue really shows the elitism you project. As if the cavers would know what to do when they got to the victim. Leave medical treatement to trained experts. Doing CPR unnecessarily can kill a person. Not doing it when it's needed will surely kill a person. Using a touniquette when not needed is dangerous. Not using one when needed can be deadly. Do you really think the paramedics are gonna hand you their defribulator and say "here Joe... you go in, it's too dangerous for us". Get out of your macho fantasy world. A cave is just a fargin hole in the ground... anyone with good solid outdoorsman skills and common sense can figure out how far to go and what dangers are present in a situation as simple as a cave. Anyone that can't tell when he's in over his head is just a victim of chlorine in the gene pool. I remember the good old days when we were allowed to take risks... like riding a bicycle w/o a helmet, and skateboarding on ground that isn't perfectly level, and swimming in ponds and rivers. I remember when you could actually get within 50 feet of the edge of a cliff and look down. Then, one or two people lose their balance and it becomes instant suction to your death. "I'm not Responsible... just ask my wife, She'll confirm it"

My plan is to use the double stick tape made for attaching auto trim, or epoxy (like JB Weld) to attach a ring for a lanyard at the top of my GPS so I can hang it in the upright position. Something like the one in this picture: "I'm not Responsible... just ask my wife, She'll confirm it"

I've been told (but haven't verified) that some property is earmarked for schools... that is, the schools occasionally sell timber from it and use the proceeds for special spending projects and such. It used to be DNR land, but was given to the county, so I'm not sure how that affected the markers (monuments) and the property usage. It is a nice patch of forest, and even though it's only 640 Acres (about 2 miles on each side) the trails run in al sorts of directions (except straight) and a person can get turned around and spend hours trying to find a trail that leads back to a road (don't ask how I know this...) "I'm not Responsible... just ask my wife, She'll confirm it"

Actually, you can use the link from the cache... once the Topozone map loads, paste "&datum=WGS84" at the end of the URL in the Address field and hit enter. "I'm not Responsible... just ask my wife, She'll confirm it"

I once saw a redneck in Alabama with a full grown tiger in the back of his van. He had the back doors open and had it on a leash. He was letting people bring their kids up to pet it. I stayed as far away as I could because a skinny redneck ain't gonna hold a 600 LB tiger in place when it decides one of those kids looks like it might taste good. Even around trained animal handlers, and even a with a cub it involves risk. If you know how to do it, you can take a samll baby to Disneyland, though I wouldn't advise it. I would do it myself if I felt the need, but I know Disneyland better than most people, and know ways to beat heat & cold inside the park... Like where the birds sing words and the flowers croon (but the kids need earplugs in there) Now there is a pet peeve... people who expose children to loud noises. Most adults don't realize how much hearing loss they truly have. What seems reasonably comgortable to most adults is very loud to a young child (though I suspect they are often in the process of making themselves deaf). "I'm not Responsible... just ask my wife, She'll confirm it"

If the kids are getting into your cache, you might consider a lock & key arrangement lik this one An impellor from a water pump on my truck could pass for aerospace parts... unles the person knows what Titanium smells like. Even an empty altoids tin will have a food scent to it. "I'm not Responsible... just ask my wife, She'll confirm it"

Should the link on each of the cache pages include the "&datum=WGS84" at the end? The cache I gave the link to in the first message on this thread has a link to a topo map that shows the cache on the wrong side of the road... sometimes when I go jogging I try to find caches with just the compass I wear on a lanyard around my neck (along with a whistle, dogtag, and a key to my car door) and a topo map (printed from the link on the cache's page). Now that I know what's going on, I can correct for it, but a couple of weeks ago I wouldn't have (and didn't) even recognize that the cache uses a different datum than the map. I just assumed if there is a link to a map of the cache location, when I click on it I'll get the right map. Is there a way that the owner of the cache can do it (either when submitting the cache for approval, or by editting an existing cache)? "I'm not Responsible... just ask my wife, She'll confirm it" [This message was edited by Mark 42 on August 27, 2003 at 03:18 PM.]

A recent cache I found had an old, used leather wallet in it. I really didn't want to touch the dang thing since there's no way to know who's sweaty butt had been sitting on it for years "I'm not Responsible... just ask my wife, She'll confirm it"

I hadn't realized that TopoZone wasn't a "stand alone" map site. I didn't know that it was designed primarily to be linked to, rather than just accessed and then have coordinates typed in by hand and a datum chosen to map with. I would like to be able to use it that way, and now that I know how to append datum selection into the URL I can do it that way, but still that seems not to be the most user friendly approach. Especially if you start at http://www.topozone.com/ then select "get a map - decimal degrees" http://www.topozone.com/finddd.asp There is nothing telling the user which Datum he is using, so if he makes a wrong assumption (like WGS84), the map will be incorrect. "I'm not Responsible... just ask my wife, She'll confirm it"

I have a degree, so now they call me eccentric instead of just weird... I just started caching, but here are some of the things I either use, or intend to use to help me keep track of my GPS: 1. I used a piece of brightly colored miniature climbing rope (about as thick as a shoelace) through the lanyard ring and put a small carabiner in the loop. 2. I only put my GPS on my windsield, sitting on the wiper to keep it from sliding down, with the lanyard clipped to the wiper or the antenna. That way, I will see it, and if I don't see it for some strange reason, it will stay attached to the car. 3. I intend to sew velcro (hook) on top of my hat and glue velcro (loop, pile... the soft part) on the bottom of my GPSr. That way I can put it on my head, and it will continue to receive without me having to carry it. I don't like the idea of carrying it in a case, or on my belt because I want it to continue tracking. 4. I intend to put a lanyard loop on the TOP of my gps so that I can hang it in a tree and it will be oriented with the antenna up. 5. I intend to get strips of surveyor's ribbon in bright orange and in yellow, and tie them to the lanyard loop so if I do leave it in a tree, or drop it, it'll be easier to find. (It'll look festive too!) 6. I will get a telescoping pole (like a trekking pole, but longer) and put a spike on the bottom and an attachment point for my GPS atop the handle so I can stick it into the ground and have my GPS up off the ground so it can continue to receive sattelite transmission while I'm hunting the area of the cache, or tying my shoelace. 6b. I can then use the pole to hold the GPS up high and get better reception. I'll hold it up high for a while, then bring it down and read the data. 7. I'll probably buy a re-radiating antenna, and put it on a very long telescoping pole so I can get up higher (if you're on a forest service road, even 20 ft higher can give a large increase in the angular projection of the slice of sky you can "see" with the antenna) 8. My Magellan SporTrak Pro Floats! If it didn't, I'd get one of those soft key floats from a boating store (or Walmart) and attach it to the lanyard. "I'm not Responsible... just ask my wife, She'll confirm it" [This message was edited by Mark 42 on August 26, 2003 at 12:30 PM.]

If you sew Velcro (hook) to the top of the hat, and then glue velcro (loop, pile) onto the bottom of your GPSr, you can put it atop your head. It continues to receive sattelites, and doesn't get lost, unless you stick your head into tight spaces. "I'm not Responsible... just ask my wife, She'll confirm it"

It does work when I paste the appended protion you maentioned, but it doesn't do it from any of the buttons on the website. I took: http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=47.4887&lon=-122.5572&s=25&layer=DRG25&size=s&u=1 and changed it to: http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=47.4887&lon=-122.5572&s=25&layer=DRG25&size=s&u=1&datum=WGS84 and it did work, but it's not very intuitive (if the orifinal had said "&datum=NAD27 in it, I probably would have figured it out, but w/o that, no.) "I'm not Responsible... just ask my wife, She'll confirm it"

I found one in Banner Forest (Port Orchard, WA) Its says "Dept of Natural resources, Washington" around the perimiter with T32N R2E S.16 | | SCHOOL L________ State Prop Corner In the center. Coords N47° 29.2955' W122° 32.8410' I was wondering if it is in some dadta base, and considered it for a Virtual, or maybe part of a Multi Cache (can you use what would be a virtual in a multi?). "I'm not Responsible... just ask my wife, She'll confirm it"

I noticed you are a pyrotechnician... I have that as one of my hobbies in my profile. "I'm not Responsible... just ask my wife, She'll confirm it"

Well, I went and tried the TopoZone map for the Cache in the link I gave in my first post... I can't see the target move when I change from NAD27 to WGS84. It looks like it is forcing itself back to the default NAD27. It'd be nice if preferences like Map size, initial scale & datum preference were saved for each user (by cookie or account) so that it would start out in the preferred mode. I'll be watching this thread now though "I'm not Responsible... just ask my wife, She'll confirm it"

Well! I started this thread, read it a couple of times, thean assumed it had gone dormant. Was I ever wrong! It's good to see a company like TopoZone cares enough about its product to answer questions in a forum where many of its users are likely to frequent. I wouldn't have realized it was active if Schweinhund hadn't been so good as to actually email me info on NAD27 and WGS84 & conversion. Kudos to y'all! I too noticed that when I chose WGS84 I thought "refresh map" would make the change happen. I haven't been back to see if it now does, or tried the site armed with some of the info from this thread, "I'm not Responsible... just ask my wife, She'll confirm it"

http://www.happy.com/ "I'm not Responsible... just ask my wife, She'll confirm it"

Yeah... I hadn't considered the implications of Precedence. Well Carleen... I think your too late... "I'm not Responsible... just ask my wife, She'll confirm it" [This message was edited by Mark 42 on August 22, 2003 at 02:00 PM.]

with a bit of rearranging so you don't cut into the "www.geocaching.com" part. "I'm not Responsible... just ask my wife, She'll confirm it"

Actually, I don't care that much about the legality... if the owners of Geocaching.com, Groundspeak, or the Rights to the Logo don't want me to (if, hypothetically I had) use a "loose rendition" or something else I come up with that resembles their logo, that's good enough for me. I would just come up with something else. Now, if it was purely by coincidence, and I had a large investment in making up some sort of property (merchandise, painting the bottom of my swimming pool, etc.), then I might not be so agreeable about choosing a different graphic. I guess it's about respect... I respect that they own it, so if I use it to guide me in creating a derivative, and didn't submit it to them for approval to use it, I would respect their complaint about my use of it and just come up with something else. If I had made up a bunch of stickers (like the logo above), I would think it reasonable to let me use up the ones I have and not make any more. Anyway, I would be surprised if Groundspeak really found the one above a violation worthy of much attention, but then again, mybe they have a need to protect the logo closer than I expect. "I'm not Responsible... just ask my wife, She'll confirm it" [This message was edited by Mark 42 on August 22, 2003 at 10:12 AM.]

Sometimes, when you take a "wrong turn", the trip ends up more interesting, and you see things you wouldn't have and learn about things you wouldn't have if you had stayed on the main road with the flow of traffic. The sub thread would have died, and those that wanted to continue to discuss whether the Pirate should be hanged from the yardarm would have been able to do so. There was a little ribbing going on, but I would say it was still far from beligerant. A few sparks don't really constitute a flame war. Everyone seemed to be getting along. Heck, at one point Woodster actually called Something I Said "Respectable"! "I'm not Responsible... just ask my wife, She'll confirm it" [This message was edited by Mark 42 on August 22, 2003 at 10:04 PM.]