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ecanderson

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Everything posted by ecanderson

  1. FWIW: Got 2.70 for my Summit HC, and problem is resolved for me as well.
  2. Like you, I'm pretty new at this, and am not above using whatever tools I can find that will keep me from doing something really stupid! I'm not the least hesitant to take a peek on Google Earth or LiveEarth before departing for a cache that's in an "iffy" location. Even then, it isn't always helpful! Last week, I saw a cache that looked like an "easy grab" on the ride home from work. There's been a lot of construction (bridge replacement) going on in the area, and while the cache is probably no more than 10' from a major divided highway (on a bridge without shoulders, no less), I certainly wasn't going to block a lane to get there! Due to the construction, the presence of a number of roads that are actually private, and a number of other concerns including fences along the highway, I had a good, long look with LiveEarth before leaving in hopes that I could at least get to reasonable hiking distance of the cache without having to walk any major highways or climb any fences I shouldn't be climbing. I have really good city maps on my vehicle GPS, but they would have led me badly astray under the circumstances. I look at the online mapping software with satellite views as just another tool. No one would begrudge someone the use of topo maps, but in urban and semi-urban areas, they're usually hopelessly out of date. Their online counterparts are far more helpful. P.S. Even with the additional tools, I'd left myself quite a little hike, thanks to the construction!
  3. Sounds like your typical celebrity Pro-Am tournament to me... Replace your divots -- if you don't, it can screw with my game. Repair your ball marks -- if you don't, it can screw with my game. Rake the sand -- if you don't, it can screw with my game. Put your crap in the trash can -- if you don't, it can screw with my game. Keep your cart where it belongs on the course -- if you don't, it can screw with my game. Remember to put the pin back in when you're done putting -- if you don't, it can screw with my game. Don't hit into me from behind -- if you do, I'll screw with YOU! Do pretty much whatever else you want to do. Invent your own scoring system or don't keep score at all. Use your putter as a cue stick to make your putts. Allow for a mulligan to be declared once at any point in the game. Ground your club. Move your ball out from behind a tree. Drive your cart into the lake. We're fine.
  4. They have issued 2.60 for the Legend and it seems to have cured the problem. Good to hear they have Vista and Legend covered ... I keep wondering when they'll get around to taking care of my Summit! Still nothing using WebUpdater as of today. By the time they get around to that model, it may be too warm to care until next year!
  5. To the contrary, Brian... I do see phony logs as an issue, but ONLY in a very practical sense of the resulting inconvenience to others, and I still maintain that some significant portion of the actual "phony" log problem is the incentive produced by the public display of the numbers. Dump the public display, remove the incentive. Better for all except those who have any particular interest in the numbers (for whatever reason).
  6. There's a perfect example of something that doesn't impact my caching experience at all. Your example ONLY matters if you're worried about the numbers.
  7. You're clearly ignoring a subset of the group that most definitely sees this as a competition. A further subset of that group is prepared to generate bogus find logs for the purpose of furthering their position in that competition. Those bogus find logs can and do confuse both cache owners and fellow cachers, causing them unnecessary time and expense. The force is strong with you young ecanderson! I totally agree with KBI that Geocaching is not a competition, but ecanderson has said it well, that there are those out there that see it as a competition. I have experienced this but care not to elaborate. I have played all different kinds of sports and there are those that cheat all the time. These type of people want to win at all costs whatever the consequences. This used to really irritate me, but later I learned that cheaters are only cheating themselves and they are the ones missing out. Alas -- "young" my butt! I have to pop on my glasses to read the itty bitty waypoint numbers on my eTrex. OTOH, I suppose "old" is always relative, isn't it??? Unfortunately, geocaching is one of those few sports/hobbies where the bad behavior of others can really screw up your day, even if you're not attempting to join into any sort of competition. It runs the gamut of having caches muggled or moved, or having bogus logs entered that mislead one into decisions that cost either time or money (or more often, both). While playing golf, if the other fellow wants to knock a few strokes off his score while I'm not looking, it doesn't matter at all of we're not in some sort of competition. I'm out there to beat my own last score, sorry though it may have been! EDIT: While the analogy isn't great, bogus logs are more like some idiot refusing to replace his divots or clean up his ball marks on the green, and finding myself stuck in his divot, or finding his 1" deep ball mark right on my line to the hole. It's that sort of self-serving lack of attention to others who have to share their "field of play" that degrades the game of golf at times, and actions of that sort will get you really dirty looks from those who really love the game AND follow its etiquette. Depending upon a community logging system to maintain this sport/hobby in some orderly fashion means that we can, by not properly considering human nature from the outset, make ourselves the occasional victim to the bad behaver -- even though this really isn't necessary with means in hand to prevent it. That there is so much resistance to this is probably ONLY a function of the relative rarity of logs that cause others real bother. It'd still annoy the heck out of me if I got caught in one of those situations, though.
  8. Add if you will, but I would recommend against self-serving edits. What you claim to have quoted is most definitely NOT what was written. And next time, I'll use the words "have and will" instead of "can", and you may italicize those too, if you wish.
  9. You're clearly ignoring a subset of the group that most definitely sees this as a competition. A further subset of that group is prepared to generate bogus find logs for the purpose of furthering their position in that competition. Those bogus find logs can and do confuse both cache owners and fellow cachers, causing them unnecessary time and expense. And to defuse your prior argument -- yes, other bad information can and will inevitably find its way into the public logs. We must attempt to excuse errors when they are errors, and ask people to be a bit more careful in their entries. That's not the topic at hand. We're talking about bad information entered with that intent, the majority of which seems to stem from claiming finds that aren't finds. Fortunately, it appears that for now, the frequency of these incidents of inconvenience due to bogus recording of finds isn't very great (at present, it seems to be reported at the "anecdotal" level). If it became large, I think you'd see changes that would inhibit this, and several have been discussed over the course of this thread. Until then, it's just a forum topic.
  10. I received the following email yesterday as regards this problem with my Summit: "I am happy to help you with this. I have contacted Garmin Engineers for a firmware update to be released for this product, however I do not have a timeline at this point. I apologize for the inconvenience." So no schedule, but at least they're paying attention to the need for a 2.60 release for the other eTrex units as well.
  11. It isn't attempts at the imposition of any rules on the "non-competitors" that is causing the problem. I think most of us are perfectly capable of ignoring that sort of thing. If this isn't supposed to be a competition, then what value is there in the public display of the total "found" count? Given the number of people geocaching, the display of those numbers will inevitably turn up a fair number who do wish to turn this into a competition, and that competition is what provides the incentive for logging bogus finds that inconvenience the rest of us -- both cache owners and other cachers. Not much real upside to speak of, and the opportunity for a serious downside. That is why I believe removal of those counts from public display would, in some measure, help to "un-degrade" geocaching.
  12. I've tested my Summit using the techniques described by other members here. Indeed, if I power it up cold, zero contrast. If I immediately power down and up again, the contrast returns. I'm not leaving the unit on long enough to warm up anything. Sounds identical to everyone's Vista problems. Thanks to those of you who recommended this, as until Garmin sees fit to pass along the fix to those of us with eTrex HC units other than the Vista, there's at least a workaround until the weather warms up! I'm fortunate in that I don't depend upon the Summit for vehicle navigation in cold temperatures. I have a TomTom 720 that I much prefer for that purpose. I picked up the Summit because TomTom doesn't directly support software that is convenient for geocaching, and the 3rd party developers for these units were locked out of any but road-snapped data in the recent NavCore7 software release (!?!). No API this time. The TT units sometimes have their own problems, but fortunately, none of them has afflicted my unit, and I haven't seen any bugs yet. Again, thanks to those who persist with Garmin on this issue. I'll call tech support again tomorrow and reiterate my position that the Summit units share this problem with the Vistas, and will update them with my "power down / power up" experience as well. Gimme that 2.60 code!
  13. The real reason for bogus logs is not numbers by themselves. It's what the numbers buy the person doing the fake logging. One would have thought that to be obvious. As noted in a prior post, at least the fish stories would likely be a good deal more entertaining than watching a counter increment. A good liar would have to entertain us, at a minimum. Meanwhile, the integrity of the logs would be improved, thus improving the situation for the rest of us. Seems like a fine idea all the way 'round. There's a logical jump there somewhere that I'm at a loss to follow. It seems that it's the "purists" who are most up in arms about all of this. As "purists", they shouldn't have as much emotional investment in the numbers game to begin with, right? One wonders. Again, the leap of logic escapes me. The justification for the simplification of what has become in some cases an excessively competitive game (that, so far as I can tell, wasn't meant to be competitive in the first place) in order to improve the quality of play... That's a far cry from suggesting that bogus logs are tolerable. Bogus logs aren't tolerable for the reasons I've already outlined. I've probably been around this online business far longer then 99% of the folks here. During the years of 300 baud (acoustic) dialup, it fell upon me to make and enforce some rules for a network that predates public use of "the internet". After listening to all of the kvetching by members and users over the course of several months, it became possible to distill what needed to be said into 4 simple rules: 1) You don't screw with someone else's equipment (e.g., mailbombs, hacking, etc.) 2) You don't impersonate other members 3) You don't do things that cost another member unnecessary time or expense 4) You don't use the medium for any purpose deemed illegal under local laws Beyond that, it was "get a thicker skin and get over it". Period. (something a few here could learn) Sadly, bogus online log entries violate #3. For that reason, and that reason alone, I object to them. Were it not for that, I wouldn't even have an interest in participating in this thread.
  14. About says all there needs to be said, if you ask me... You'd think some of these folks were competing to be first to get their orienteering merit badge. Actually, that'd be a more worthy venture (batteries not included). It seems obvious to me that if anyone is concerned about "the numbers game" ruining their caching experience, that its only because they are paying attention to "the numbers game". Ignore it and it goes away like magic. Unfortunately, it can't be ignored, because the "numbers game" is what is driving the sort of bad logs under discussion. There are real downsides to bogus finds -- the online logs don't necessarily tell an accurate story of the current cache site situation. That can be a real bother both for the rest of us and the cache owner. If it weren't for that one result, many of us would be able to ignore it entirely. All of us -- cachers and cache owners alike -- depend upon the logs being as accurate as possible within the realm of human error. It's foundational to the process. Do away with the public display of totals, and you will also do away with most of the bogus log problems to which this entire thread is directed. All the "invention" of a find serves is to boost someone's numbers, unless they just want to screw with people by inconveniencing them. If you want to make these problems go away, recommend to the site owner that the design not display total counts. The resulting clean-up of attitudes would likely do a world of good here anyway.
  15. About says all there needs to be said, if you ask me... You'd think some of these folks were competing to be first to get their orienteering merit badge. Actually, that'd be a more worthy venture (batteries not included).
  16. Called tech support on my new Summit HC today. Tech initially denied knowing that there was any such problem with the Vista HCx. I suggested he determine the purpose of release 2.60 and get back to me. About 5 minutes later, he seems to acknowledge that the Vista HCx has this issue, but then says that they'd not heard this about the Summit. Given that the display technology and firmware are the same, I guess I found this -- well -- less than I would have expected by way of a response. He said he'd pass the Summit news along to his supervisor. Wonder if we'll ever see 2.60 for the Summit ... assuming it works for the Vista.
  17. Just received an eTrex Summit directly from Garmin, and it exhibits precisely this behavior. FWIW, I am using fresh Duracell alkalines. This problem (for me) only occurs in cold weather -- somewhere in the 32F and slightly below range sets it off. It seems to occur only during power on in cold weather. I am certain that this unit has issues with cold weather as if I stick it in my pocket for a few minutes to warm it up, it recovers. I'm reasonably certain I'm not turning it off before sticking it in my pocket -- I just continue to walk toward the last (almost) visible compass reading while it warms.
  18. Just picked up a new Summit HC, and I am having the same problems. Took it out over the weekend in about 25F weather, and there was almost no screen contrast at all. Had a buddy with an older Cx unit with me, and he was having no problems at all. Whatever they're saying, it's definitely a temperature issue. I can put it in my pocket for a minute or two to warm it up (no power switching) and it seems to recover. Might need to talk to Garmin about this one, too.
  19. Why do the "honest folks" need public totals, either? Perhaps a far more relevant discussion would be one that focused on whether or not we could find a way to just live without public totals. I get the sense that this hobby/sport has gone a bit astray of its original intent. Not that Jeremy's baby must avoid morphing into something new to avoid some sort of collapse of the universe, but he may not be especially impressed with its adolescent years. From what I know of him and the history of geocaching, he must be a bit bummed over some of the turns it has taken. [EDIT] In fact... removing the public totals might do a great deal for the integrity of geocache logging, making all of these several pages of arguments moot, and improving the situation for cache owners and cachers alike through more accurate record keeping -- and the whole tenor of these forums in general might improve. The only downside would be a loss of revenue to geocaching.com -- very difficult to quantify that in advance -- since those whose primary focus has really been on the numbers all along (not that they'd admit to it) would find something else to occupy their time. Public display of counts and human nature are, in conjunction, what drive 99% of the problem you're all obsessing over. From a purely practical perspective, I can assure you that the latter certainly isn't going to change. That does leave the former as an option, and perhaps one that is overdue? Frankly, I'd much rather give credit to someone who does a truly amazing job of designing a cache or is willing to go to some real extremes to snag one. Yes, there would undoubtedly be some fish stories about those events, too, but they'd be a WHOLE lot more entertaining than watching a counter increment, which is about exciting as watching paint dry. I'd much rather hear about the guy who wound up overboard bringing in the marlin (and perhaps even succeeded!) than I would about the guy who caught more bass than anyone else, doing it like he was counting the dents he'd pounded out of a car. As a measure of success, the current system really lacks imagination, and I guess I'm surprised that our "founder" allows this to continue, and that so many people here are happy to let it stand.
  20. More to the point -- if the numbers weren't visible to the public, there wouldn't be nearly so much incentive to fake a log in the first place. I'm beginning to form a strong opinion on this count business, now that I see what it is causing.
  21. Another strong argument for scrapping public view of total counts from the geocaching.com site. While I'm a relative newbie at this, I can tell you that whoever designed the geocaching.com web pages with total finds made public was clearly more interested in the number of views/impressions (a marketing term) than the end result of publishing those counts. Whether that's a necessary evil to support the site can only be answered by an understanding of the site owner's business plan. At the margin, you can bet that there are enough who would spend less time here without the bragging rights that it brings, and would reduce overall revenues from Shopzilla et al.
  22. You are pretty much using the same example as Ecanderson did. Much like his example, I wouldn't have logged the creek cache as a find. Not at all the same. Mine was a matter of near certain exposure of a cache to muggles due to cache location. If I'd been out there by myself, I'd have taken the personal risk of the climb (and did, the next day -- but private moments during "open" hours here are very nearly impossible to find -- it is both the entrance to and 'crossroads' within a very popular spot). I guess I object as a matter of principle to really PUBLIC locations that require gymnastics that are far too obvious. Then again, if an owner doesn't mind having their cache muggled all the time... Perhaps that's the right answer. The cacher should make a "best effort", but if someone places a cache in such an untenable spot, they take their chances.
  23. A conundrum: Of interest -- I was very nearly tempted to do exactly the same thing yesterday. I was able to see a cache that simply could NOT be accessed without drawing HUGE amounts of attention. The cache was in a public park area that maintains dawn to dusk hours, so it wasn't like I could come sneaking back in the dead of night to tend to the log. Actual access to this cache for log signing purposes would have required climbing up on a bit of public signage/kiosk at the entrance to the park where many people were passing by and moving in and out of the park. The cache was 8+ feet off the ground. As I get started in actually placing caches, I think I might be a bit more circumspect about location. Anyway, due to coordinates and a bit of focused looking, the thing WAS there to be found, just not touched. Got a brain fart this morning, and realized that if I were to drop by on a cold, cloudy day half an hour before the Super Bowl started, there might be less people about. A person shouldn't have to find one of perhaps 5 half-hour slots in a year to visit a cache without making its presence obvious. Did manage to get the thing signed without being observed. Having actually seen the thing, would I have been doing geocaching a favor by grabbing it during any of the other 360 days a year (and most of the hours within the other 5) when it would have been pretty obvious and might well have been muggled, or would this pastime have been better served by just logging the thing as found -- since it really was found?
  24. I don't know if you play golf, but the description of the web site from the previous poster isn't really all that different from how it's actually done. After playing a round of golf, if the player intends to play with competitive golf with a "real" handicap (not purely recreational golf), the results of the game are entered on the course computer by the player at the end of the round. It is by that system that a player's handicap is computed for competitive purposes. The resulting scores and handicap then available for verification. It's not enough to enter a competition and say "I shoot a 22 handicap". This system is the way we know you're not really an 8 handicapper and trying to sandbag us! For those who prefer their geocaching as a competitive sport, the same honor system applies to both logging caches and posting your round at the end of a golf game. The difference it that the pros rarely get away with anything (too many fans, officials and cameras) ... not even Vijay (1985 Asian Tour). Much of what many geocachers do is done in as much stealth as conditions permit. I could care less whether someone posts a bogus golf score or does a bogus online log of a cache. When caught, it certainly provides information about a person's character, but unless there's money on the line that has been taken out of someone else's pocket (e.g., professional golf), nuts to 'em.
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