squirrel42

At least something happens. The price for PM is no longer advertised at 30$ on the get premium page: http://www.geocaching.com/premium/ On the other hand I heard roumors, that Groundspeak is not registered for VAT with HMRC. The roumor goes, the only European business registration is that of a company called "Biddle Innovations Ltd." and that is for the trade mark "Travelbug". As veryfying this information would cost me about 14€ I cannot for shure say, if that's correct or not.

Do you delete also logs, where the cacher promotes the next event or so?

Sort of "yes" as most PMs won't be prepared for letters from the local tax authorities claiming the VAT. And as a customer in the worst case you'll be liable to pay VAT if the company, in our case GS, doesn't forward VAT correctly. The communication problem is anyway a biggy for Groundspeak and I doubt they will ever learn that communication is vital if you want to do business.On the other hand many PMs trusted in GS's promise, that the PM rate will be frozen as long as you keep on renewning. That promise was broken, so why should I trust GS that they forward VAT correctly now? Edit: To make it plain, I am not saying, they are not forwarding VAT. All I can say I don't know if they are forwarding VAT and as information is poor I have some doubts.

Well, as VOES is effective since 2003 and not April 2013 at least the question what about the period 2003 till 2013 is still open. Besides why they charge 33% extra and not 20-25% and why non Euro countries such as Poland have to pay in Euro now... Anyway, I think HMRC can sort this out better than we.

Do you really need a copy?* I just sumed up the facts I know. I stated what Groundspeak is and what service they offer and the meberships they offer (basic=free, premium=paid). I also gave information about the unannounced price hike for EU members and that GS stated, it was because GS had to forward VAT as of April 17th 2013, that they don't want to give information about VAT rate and VAT registration number. I used this form to complain: https://online.hmrc.gov.uk/shortforms/form/CusConf_InformB?dept-name=Customs&sub-dept-name=Hotline&location=48&origin=http://www.hmrc.gov.uk Most companies don't need a discussion about this, as any other company I deal with has so far informed me in advance when prices change. They also offer information about VAT rates charged and/or VAT registration number. If you call GS's policy "transparent" then you might think the chinese wall is transparent as well. No other company I ever dealt with changed the prices for a certain region without notice from one day to the other. There is a clear regulation within the EU which is known as "VOES". Under this scheme it is not important, where you actually consume (in our case: where you read a cache listing or download a pq) but where you live. This is a special scheme for digital/electronic services and subscriptions. There is no gray area. Either you are a EU resident or you are not.But nevertheless, GS already stated they are registered with UK tax authorities and claim to be forwarding EU VAT. So why do they make such a big secret out of the VAT rate and/or the VAT registration number? There is no need for this as neither the one nor the other is on the "top secret" list. Any other company gave me that information, at least on request but most did so even if I didn't ask for it. Edit says: *anyone interested in my writing please drop me a note via my GS acount. Please note that I won't go into private discussion via e-mail!

I'm waiting for nothing. Just have to do the writing. The report will go to HMRC today. That's where my "learning curve" leads me to.

And I'm quite positiv that Groundspeaks "learning curve" will by then lead them to some way of secretely increasing the price for recurring PMs as well. Also I'm quite shure that better communincation, though it's been promised, is not on the agenda for that "learning curve"

Have they really talked to VAT experts? GS just spoke of "experts" and that means nothing. If they spoke to "VAT experts", why should they have recomended not to give vital imformation? Bryan said 4 weeks ago that GS would give the VAT number in the case GS found out they are allowed to publish this number. And yes, it is allowed to publish this number. Again another broken promise by Groundspeak. And there is no reason to hide the VAT number or not tell us what VAT rate they are taking. As I said earlier, as recurring PM I'm at the moment not affected by the price hike but nevertheless I will cancel my PM. I don't want to do business with a company which treats its customers like this. Furthermore I'll report GS to HMRC and German tax authorities as I suspect them of tax fraud.

What about a footer in each log we write? This is really public! That´s a really great idea! I will go for that Yes. And talk to your fellow cachers when you meet them in the woods or at events.

You might be right. That's why this story about "learning curves" is so funny to me. It's not the first time that a lack of communication has been critizised. Shouldn't a propper learnig curve lead to more communication and make Groundspeak to provide necessary information?

Klick on "1 year". It seems, that the non-recurring is no longer available. But still they advertise the price at 30$ with no clue the price might vary for some countries...

I wonder what kind of "experts" they talked to (if any) and why they recommended not to give vital information. HMRC warns, that if a company doesn't give its VAT number customers should be careful... To me it seems now even more likely that G$ does not pay VAT and is not registered with any European tax authority.

Try your local Finanzamt or the nearest Hauptzollamt. But as G$ claims to be registered in the UK a complaint to HMRC will do the trick anyway.

The 2005 version ( http://www.geocaching.com/subscribe/ ) contained the text: It can be found at the "Way-back-machine" at archive.org: http://web.archive.org/web/20050829125729/http://www.geocaching.com/subscribe/

As Groundspeak says, they are registered with the British HMRC this would be the relevant page you are looking for: Customs, Excise and VAT fraud reporting

I counted 19, and I can tell you that the vast majority were for links to competing sites and inappropriate language. None of these have ever been tolerated in the forums. Some of those I counted were reposts, as the poster tried to post their note multiple times. Those identical posts was removed again and again. Not to forget the at least 3 or 4 Post referring to a certain Canadian geocaching supplier which can be mentioned in the coins section but not in this thread! Now Groundspeak: I am tired of waiting. An explanation and an excuse, please! And both plausible and no fishy talk again. You had a fourtnight to think "long and hard" about a 10 year old law.

Haven't you read the last 9 pages of this discussion? It's not about the price, it's about how Groundspeak communicates the price change - or better, how GS not communicates it. And it's also about the somewhat fishy reasons they give. I don't know how you get to work, but maybe you go by car. And then you go down the highway and for one or the other reason, the speed limit changes in 2003 from 75 mph to 55 mph. But you keep on traveling at 75, and you are lucky. And then, in 2013, you are caught by the highway patrol and you say: "Well, officer, I thought long and hard, but from now on I'll obey the speed limit." and "No, I won't show you my driving license".

Again, if somebody here in Dortmund, Germany walks into the local C&A or H&M branch, anybody will pay the same price for a specific product, regardless if he's from Germany, France, the US or from Mars. (More, non EU consumers will even pay less, as they are refunded the VAT if they reclaim it.) And I'll get a proper receipt as well, showing all the information we are still missing from Groundspeak. They just claim to be paying VAT now, but they should have the last 10 years. What about that? Will I get a bill from the local tax authorities? Will they really pay VAT from now on? I cannot say, as I haven't seen their VAT number and so I haven't the slightest clue. If you don't care, well, that's up to you.

That's what I thought. On the other hand it's hard to compare prices of physical products in different markets. But that's another story. To come back billing, VAT-registration numbers and the lot. I found two ordinary receipts in my pokets. One from a sports and outdoor store, one from a local supermarket. Neither I do run a sports business nor a grocery shop. But all the important information are given here even on plain receipts at the check out in those shops. Both of these examples are for physical goods sold within the EU. But as noted above, a non-EU company billing for e-services under VOES is different. Presumably Groundspeak provides a VAT invoice if they sell a cache container to a residential customer in the UK. 1.) My aim was to make plain that it is no big deal to provide the VAT registration number 2.) I doubt that any non-EU company providing digital content and collects EU VAT for that product (in case of EU customers, of course) may refuse to give the information of VAT rate and registration number.

That's what I thought. On the other hand it's hard to compare prices of physical products in different markets. But that's another story. To come back billing, VAT-registration numbers and the lot. I found two ordinary receipts in my pokets. One from a sports and outdoor store, one from a local supermarket. Neither I do run a sports business nor a grocery shop. But all the important information are given here even on plain receipts at the check out in those shops.

So if I am by chance in New York, do I pay 30$ or 30€ for the sweat shirt? Will they ask me at the check out, where I'm from to find a price? See the difference?

I can only speak for Germany, but I think, the procedure is somewhat likewise in other EU countries. The price advertised must include VAT and all other taxes where appropiate. I.e.: The price advertise is the price you pay. That's true. Also true. German based companies must also show the number in the imprint of their web sites. If Groundspeak was a German based company it would defenitely be illegal. But as they are not I cannot tell. About being dishonest: It's highly irritating to me, that the price on the "get premium" page is advertised as 30$ and not the slightest clou is given that the price might vary for some countries.

For B2B they must provide VAT number, for private business they can. But if the (private) customer ask for a propper invoice, again they must provide the nessecary information. As I stated earlier, even at the local supermarket when I buy a box of milk for 60 cents I'll get a receipt showing all the information about tax rate and tax amount. And I wont have any trouble finding out it's VAT number. Take any German based company (either nativ or a subsidary), they'll show the tax information in the imprint. One random example: a German sports magazine-. You'll find business registration number and VAT registration number right under the name of the company.There is simply no need to protect the VAT number. How would you missuse this? Pay the VAT for the company? So I still belive: The only reason I can think of for not providing a VAT number is not havin a VAT number. Groundspeak, please proofe me wrong. From the mentioned webpage:

Sadly it seems indeed like that's the only language Groundspeak understands. I renewed my premium membership the end of February. If I were up to renew now I certainly would think twice! Like almost everybody here it's not about the money for me, but about the way Groundspeak treats us. It's time they start realising that whitout us there would be no 2 million caches to show off with! My premium mebership was renewed a few weeks ago. - I am on auto-renewal (so I'd still pay $30, I guess) - I don't pay by myself, as I always get the PM as a birthday present Never the less, this will be my last year of PM if G$ doesn't change it's policy how to treat paying customers! I also told some fellow geocachers about what is going on, most of them won't renew as well (one or two will try "the Canadian way"). And I keep noticing, that a certain alternative geocaching platform has quite a lot of new published caches at the moment...

It's more likely they ignore the problem. Seems they have set up a SEP-field and hope the problem just goes away...