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Everything posted by snowfreak37

  1. Between researching NYGO forums (Thanks WhiteUrkel) and an informative reply from NY Adim (Thanks NY Admin) I have a good understanding what is going on. The first paragraph was an email sent to NY Admin from me and the next one is NY Admin's reply (printed with his permission). I'll make the call this upcoming week and post the information here. In regards to XX, Do you have any information that you could share with me that might help me get permission to place caches on WMA's. To your knowledge is there an email or document here at geocaching.com that shows why caches should not be published? You mentioned that a similar situation occured where a cacher received authorization from the local land manager but you contacted the Director and he rejected that authorization, when was that? Was that the last contact that you have had with the Director? If you can think of anything that would help us get caching back into these WMA's it would be greatly appreciated. I just wanted to exhaust my resources here before attempting to contact the current Director. Thanks This Wildlife Management Area restriction was handed down to me from the reviewer who covered NYS before me. At that time Geocaching was not allowed on any state DEC lands. During the summer of 04 using the personal contacts I had in DEC I managed to work my way up to the two land bureau chiefs. I met with them several times and convinced them to do a study on the impact geocaching was having on the environment. I suspect the study consisted of no more than a survey sent to the regional managers. At that time it was determined geocaching was having no negative effect on the enviroment and we were permitted to start placing caches on lands managed by the two land bureaus. In 2004 there were very few geocaches out in the wild compared to now. I don't think the results would be the same today. NYS DEC lands are broken up into several classifications and some falling into more than one classification. Its all very confusing. The two bureau chiefs I worked with granted us permission (with few limitations - see my profile) to start geocaching on lands they were responsible for. However, they could not speak for Wildlife Management Areas because they are managed by different branch of DEC. About 3 years ago a cache placer insisted he had permission from the region 4 wildlife biologist. Befoe publishing that cache I called the then director Barnhart and was told not to publish geocaches in NYS DEC Wildlife Management Areas. Geocaching was not an 'approved' use and allowing a 'non approved' use could jepordise their federal funding. He went on to say the regional offices do not have the authority to grant an unapproved use of a state Wildlife Management Area. As a result of that conversation I can not publish a geocache within a NYS DEC Wildlife Management Area without notification and approval from the directors office. With 85 Wildlife Management Areas in New York totaling over 200,000 acres it would be a great addition to our states geocaching resources if we could start geocaching within them. As a reviewer I would love nothing more than to be able to publish caches in state WMAs. With 85 areas scattered throughout the state its hard to keep track of them and the state's GIS maping sites are extreamly slow. Just checking for Wildlife Management areas while reviewing chews up a hugh amout of time. Like I said, I would love nothing better than to be able to publish caches in state Wildlife Management Areas and I hope you can succeed in opening WMAs up for us. If I can be of any further help don't hesitate to ask. New York Admin volunteer cache reviewer
  2. WhiteUrkel good call, I registered on the New York Geocaching Organization web site and sure enough there was some information on that web site but most of it dead ends in 04 and 05. There was talk of a $25 permit system and the requirement of having liability insurance and Temporary Revocable Permits (TRP's) but the threads just seem to end, leaving me wondering where this stands. The particular threads I am referring to are under the Land Management forums but all of those threads were from 04, 05. It will be interesting to see where this all ends as this plot seems to thicken the more I dig in. Whoever was the NY Admin back in 2004 has a wealth of information. It would appear most of this has been researched many moons ago. Heres an example from 12/7/2004 Hi, I have an early Christmas present for all geocachers in New York State. Not sure if you are aware of it or not but I've been working with DEC for 5 months now to have state land opened up once again to geocaching. I met again this past Monday with Tom Wolf, Bureau of State Land Management, NYS Dept. of Environmental Conservation and Peter Frank, Bureau Chief, Forest Preserve Management, NYS DEC. At this last meeting they finally gave me the thumbs up. The Temporary Revocable Permits are out and geocaching is in. In without a permit. In without a fee. In without State control. The Bureau of Land Management has done a study of geocaching on state land and found there seems to be no negative impact to the land and therefore see no reason not to allow it. The rangers (including Mr. Messenger) have all been instructed to leave any geocache in place as long as it is CLEARLY MARKED as a GEOCACHE and not causing a problems. Now for the limitations. You just knew there had to be some didn't you. Well they aren't anything that's not already in the Geocache Listing Guidelines. 1. All containers must be clearly labeled on the outside as a GEOCACHE. 2. No caches placed on mountain tops, keep them down within the tree line. 3. No digging in the ground to bury a cache. 4. Don't post or advertise this new policy anywhere so we don't' have a flood of new caches on state land. Let this information drift out on its own. The only state lands we aren't allowed on yet is Wildlife Management Areas and I'm still working on that. Lands where the state holds an easement are a whole new can of worms. Every easement is different, some we can and some we can't use. I’ll need to run each cache on an easement through the DEC office in Albany before I can approve it. This is all on a trial bases so lets tread lightly and show the DEC office we can police ourselves. That's about it in a nut shell. Tell your friends if you want but please don't post it in the forums or on your web page.. I'm sure it will hit there eventually but maybe it will wait until winter so there isn't a mad rush to state lands. Please ask your webmaster to remove the statement from your home page that caches are not allowed on state land. Also, and here’s the kicker, a bonus I hadn’t counted on he/she can also remove the line that caches are not allowed in the Adirondack and Catskill parks. Merry Christmas! New York Admin geocaching.com
  3. Here was the outcome, Our area volunteer reviewers maintain contact with the land management authorities within their area. In the case you cited, I encourage you to continue to work with reviewer New York Admin. I will continue to follow this thread just in case someone is aware of how and when the Director of the DEC came into contact with this site to ban publishing caches on WMA's. I will wait until next week and if no furhter info is available on this end I will try and contact the current Director for additional permission.
  4. Well true. Including an example in the general forum last week where a cache was blown up. In this case, the information as to why we haven't been able place caches in WMA's since at least September 2004 may exist in clear-cut black and white fashion somewhere, but it's certainly never been diseminated to the troops on the ground as far as I can tell. (Inkwell, you really save 4.5 year old emails? ) NYAdmin is not the final authority. If you feel (as I obviously do) that you have explicit permission to place caches on these WMA's and are being made to "jump through hoops", you can forward that letter along with your explanation to appeals@geocaching.com and appeal your cache rejection. Believe it or not, reviewers have been wrong before, and their decisions have been overturned. Man, did I just type that? I feel like FireRef or something. But those are my thoughts, and you certainly got 'em. Well the email has been sent along with supporting documentation. I will post the outcome when I have one.
  5. Have you asked NY Admin? He is the one that is probably the most knowledgeable about this. Yes I have and NY Admin has been very good about getting back with me. I'm trying to find out what was handed down. There must be an email or some correspondence that details what took place to ban publishing caches on WMA's. Is this correspondence from 2 weeks ago or 5 years ago. I have a letter authorizing placing a cache 2/20/2009 but not from the Director. There must be a similar letter or email banning publishing these caches on WMA's. That information may prove to be very important when I try to contact the current director if that is indeed what is required. Some caches were published on WMA's in the past what was the triggering point? Did we always contact the Director prior to placing caches on WMA's in NY? From what I understand the current Director is a female so I'm not sure how long ago this transpired. How far up the food chain does one need to go? Is the Director the top? I wanted to post here because I did not want to take up all of NY Admin time. I figure he or she is voluntering time to publish caches. I would rather try and contact the Director myself, I'm the one that would like to place a cache on a WMA, and like my first post suggested I'd like to have as much information as possible before contacting the current Director. Who know's maybe the current Director is a fellow cacher? Here is the last reply from NY Amin. This was handed down to me when I started reviewing caches. At one point a regional manager authorized a geocache in a WMA and even wrote a letter authorizing it. I called the director and he told me not to publish any caches in a state Wildlife Management Area, regional managers can not reverse his office's policy.. If you wish to pursue this have Mr. XX contact the Director and have the Director email me with authorization to start publishing geocaches in WMA's. Until I hear it from the Director I'm not allowed to publish caches located in a NYS WMA.
  6. If all else fails at least by the end of this thread I won't be a tadpole any longer.
  7. New York State Department of Environmental Conservation Division of Fish, Wildlife and Marine Resources, Region 5 Bureau Of Wildlife Website: www.dec.state.ny.us MEMORANDUM TO: XX FROM: XX, Wildlife SUBJECT: Geocaching on Lewis Preserve WMA DATE: February 20, 2009 At this time a permit is not required to place a geocache on State owned Wildlife Management Areas (WMAs) in Clinton and Essex Counties of New York. These areas include Kings Bay WMA, Montys Bay WMA, Lake Alice WMA, Lewis Preserve WMA, Ausable Marsh WMA, Wickham Marsh WMA, Pauline Murdoch WMA, and Putts Creek WMA. The placing of a geocache and participating in geocaching are authorized uses of these WMAs and are fully compatible with the management goals for these lands. If in the future, a permit is required to place a geocache on these WMAs, I will happily issue you one. In the meantime, please allow this memorandum to serve as your authorization to continue your activities. If you have any questions or if I can be of any additional assistance, please do not hesitate to contact me XX So I received this permission letter from the local DEC region 5 office. The official one is on DEC letterhead and included his and my names. From my current understanding I need to try and get a similar letter from the director of fish, wildlife, and marine. I don't mind trying to do that but at this time that information is coming from within (here), not from the DEC office. The directors guide lines supercede the regiional ones from what I understand. I'm just trying to find out the specifics of the original letter, email, directive sent here that ban publishing caches in WMA's because the regional DEC office is certainly not aware of such a ban. I'd like to have all my ducks in a row first before attempting to contact the current director.
  8. I tried to place a cache in a WMA in 2005 I believe it was. I was told that caches were not allowed in NY WMA's. The reason to me, it seemed, was pretty much because NYAdmin says so. The alleged ban seems to have been pretty new at that time, because caches were definitely published in a local WMA in 2004. Personally, I never did find any documentation anywhere of such a ban, either on the web, or with a few calls to local DEC officials. You could contact the current director. Or you could just appeal this cache through geocaching.com channels, and include your documentation that you have permission. Sounds like I am having the same issues that you did. I have permission from the gentelman who patrols this area but nothing from the director. I don't mind trying to contact the current director but I am trying to find out when and where this documentation began. It appears that sometime in 2004, 2005 the director contacted someone here and asked that caches not be published on WMA's. I'd like to see the details of that directive so I'm not shooting from the hip when I contact this current director. As of right now according to NY admin no caches are allowed on WMA's, there must be some documentation from the director to support the ban on the WMA's. I am hoping to get the WMA's open for caching. I think its an excellent use of the resources that we have.
  9. I wanted to see if anyone on this board has any information about why placing caches on Wildlife Management Areas in New York State is currently not allowed by the Director of Fish, Wildlife, and Marine. I am not trying to troll but I'd like to get a very accurate and clear understanding of what happened and some sort of a time line so that when I attempt to contact the current director, I have as much information as possible. My current story goes as such. First of all I live in DEC region 5 area. After three calls to the DEC region 5 office to ask for permission to place a cache I am put into contact with XX. XX gives me verbal permission this early December. I place my cache and submit it for review and it gets rejected for being on a Wildlife Management Area. I am told to place the cache I need to get written authorization, I misunderstand and assume written permission from XX at DEC region 5 headquaters. In reality I need written permission from the Director of Fish, Wildlife, and Marine acording to my reviewer. In the meantime I get written permission from XX at DEC region 5 and he does a very nice detailed letter stating that the WMA's in Clinton and Essex counties are open for caching. I am trying to find out if anyone knows when the Director of Fish, Wildlife, and Marine in NY contacted this site and asked to not publish caches. Was there a particular circumstance that I should be aware of before contacting the current director (assuming I can). Thanks for any information.
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