woodsters

I don't care if the thread goes off topic...that happens...that's for the moderators to decide and whether or not they want to moderate it... Also I didn't imply you Criminal. Maybe I should have stated that some have said they have been told no and also stated that others have stated that they don't want to ask because they may be told no or may cause eviction of other caches already present. Then there is you, who states they just don't want to, because they feel it isn't necessary...

Of course the discussion has been that people don't want to or don't feel the need to ask permission to place a cache. Reason? The only reason i've seen so far is that they are afraid that a land manager will say no and that psosibly it may affect other cache already there. What reasons have people gotten when land managers said "no"? What were the reasons they gave?

Let them say no...your still going to do it because it's your land, right? It's not our land. It may be land for public use, but unfortunately we vote in the bureaucrats (can't believe I said that word) that establish the rules, laws and hire the staff that uphold those rules and laws. The land managers are hired to do a job. To efficiently (for the most part), operate, protect, serve, and enforce. As stated Geocaching is for the most part not recognized. It's not beneficial to it try and keep it under a hat. It's not a secret society. Work with the managers and give them the benefit and notification of an activity that you and others are doing there or want to do there. Yes, some will say no. So what, you can't get your way all the time. There are plenty others that will say yes. Yes deer and other animals make tracks. It's their home and it belongs to them , is natural and is one of the things that agencies are trying to protect. Geocaching is not natural, it's something foreign being introduced into nature. Geocaching will be allowed, give it some time and some positive publicity.

I guess that would depend o nthe area. 99% of the caches that I have found were not on a trail. You used a trail to access to the area, but you had to leave the trail to get to it and I'm not talking about a few feet. I'm talking a few hundred to even more. Then you have those who decide to leave trails early and/or bushwack the whole way. Yes hikers and others may do it from time to time, but a geocache is a reason for someone to do it. There is a reason for them to do it. You can try t ostop people from hiking off trail, but you can't necessarily pinpoint an area that they are doing it. Geocachers usually do it in a certain area.

frisbee players and easter egg hiders, normally take their frisbee and eggs with them. If you took your cache with you when you left, then there would be no problem probably. But with caching, you are leaving something behind. You may not be abandoning it in your eyes, but to them they may see it that way. When are you going to return to get it? Will you be back tomorrow? It's not like something that you forgot or that you couldn't take with you. One of the first things i was taught in law enforcement was that in order to catch a crook, you have to think like one. (one reason why cops are the best crooks and why many become them). Turn the other hand and act like a land manager, think of reasons not to allow it. Even think of a land manager that has never heard about it. Don't think of how you as a land manager may think, but how other land manager would might think. Make an argument as a land manager. Once you've exhausted the reasons, then go back to the other hand and work on the defense...

As Breaktrack said, fight for your right. Get the sport recognized. For those who are told they can't place caches on public land, then fight your way through it until you feel otherwise. As some have stated, there may be good reasons for not allowing it. Sensitive ecological areas may be one. There are groups such the Sierra Club and green peace that have been around for a long time and have made impacts on the world. They have established relationships and fought for what they believe in. I can imagine someone who doesn't know anything about geocaching that sees something not natural (cache) in the woods as litter. Then you add a name and a website to it, it gives the sport and the website a tarnish effect. You aren't going to be able to convince everyone that geocaching is a safe and environmental friendly sport. You can lead a horse to water, but not make them drink. It's going to happen, and that's fine. I have no problem with places like the NPS not allowing them. Would I go after caches in them if htey were allowed? You betcha. Would I place one? Maybe. I don't feel the inclination to place caches everywhere. I enjoy the caches of others out there. But if I were determined to get caches allowed in the NPS, then I would fight it. I would form a group, get a petition, email, mail, and call those in D.C. Keep on pounding them. Either they will stand their ground, give in fully or give in partially and perhaps have some restrictions. Just because it's public land, they(land manager and agencies) are the ones that have to deal with the impact of it. Many times they jsut don't understand it. Explain it to them. But make it good. Don't just tell them that you are going to place a cache in stump or in some rocks off the beaten path. Explain to them that it's not much different than hiking which is already allowed, is less damaging than other things they allow and that geocaching promotes CITO. Listen to their concerns and work with them on it. If I were a land manager, I would allow it, but with restrictions. But that is just me. I would want to grant permission for every cache placed. Mainly to know where it's going to be, that it's not destroying environmental fragile areas, and that illegal activities are not happening (hence the marijuana found in a cache someone posted before about). Trying to make geocaching.com a sport of rebellion is not going to help it or the cause. It will only make it worse and outlawed....

It happens. Although there is not really a 100% way of avoiding such things, this is one of the reasons the pocket queries come in handy with a pocket pc or pda. It can help eliminate some of this as long as you do a pocket query before heading out. Of course there is always a chance that the cache could be disabled or archived during the time fram of downloading and going after the cache...

Geocachers do it in fields of poison ivy!

On the cache being trash and/or abandoned. As someone else stated before, you don't have to explain that to cachers. It's the non cachers. But then on the other hand, there was discussion a while back about caches that are abandoned and left as geo-litter. So sometimes caches are abandoned property as well as trash. I could see the concerns of it. Also you have to look at the standpoint of legality. Geocaching may not be illegal in itself, but what about the issue with train tracks? I remember reading about a person being prosecuted if I'm correct on that issue. Also to point out the letter that geocaching.com received about NWR's. Personally and first of all, I would like to secure my safety from prosecution of pissing off some land managers. And secondly, I would prefer to protect as much as possible of my future finders from prosecution as well. People state about how one would feel bad if they "alerted" officials about caches in the area, well I would feel equally as bad for someone getting prosecuted for retrieving a cache, trespassing, etc. Of course I guess as cache finders that is a risk that one runs into, but it shouldn't be promoted. As a child, if I did something wrong, it always ended up better if I admittted it. If I didn't then the consequences were far worst. Just as my son wanted a knife and asked for one. We agreed to get him one after talking about it and the fact that he asked for one. If he bought one on his own somewhere or got one from someone else without us knowing and we found out, he would be in serious trouble. "What you don't know won't hurt you". May be true in some respect, but if you are the one that is the subject of that statement and then find out, then it will hurt you. Or you will hurt someone else.

Not all caches are hidden from view. I've come across a few in the 70 something that I have bagged thatwere in plain site. Your right about the car thing, it is rude. Just as it is rude to not give the manager the benefit of knowing of what you are doing and that you are leaving what some and maybe themselves as trash. Or abandoning property. Even though there is a link to the owner, so is there with that rudely parked car. With the car, you might of said ok if they asked you. Same as a manager, they may say yes if you ask them as I have experienced myself. While there may be no law or rule written (although in some places there may be) on placing a cache on public land, there's also no law in parking the car on a public street (unless otherwise noted). Both are rude.

I understand both sides of the car thing. Where I came from we didn't have the parking permit thing, but moving up in New England, where Ju66l3ris from, I have seen that they are needed in places. Using the analogy of the car. What would you do if a neighbor came and parked their boat or camper in front of your house and never moved it, assuming their is no law against this and the road is public property? Would it not anger you? Would you ask them to remove it or have it removed (towed)? Would it of been nicer for the neighbor to at least ask if it was alright to park it there and if any problems arose to contact them and let them know? You might of told them no, but you would at least not hae as harsh feelings about it. And perhaps in the future you may allow it. Heck they may have a very good reason for doing it that you could go along with, but you wouldn't know unless they asked and told you first... Ok...tear that analogy apart.

I haven't looked at presentation yet that geospotter sent me to post, but this does remind me of something else. A few years ago a guy that worked at the same place i did, sold Amway products. Of course he tried to get me involved. He gave me this little tiny cd that wabout the size of a credit card and told me to take a look at it. It was really neat. It was an awesome presentation on the company and etc. I think some guru here design such a thing on geocaching in general and sell them. Once again that presentation that geospotter sent me is on my message board under the General geocaching area...

Ok the file is available ...You can find it at the Geocaching General discussion forum of my message board.

Ok...finally got the file downloaded and am now uploading to the server...will probably be at least another 20-30 minutes on it as it's 4.90 MB and that's it zipped.... Thanks for your patience...

it appears to be a large file...i'm on dialup and am still receiving it in my email...

No problemo...I will get it posted on the message board in the Geocaching area, maybe under the downloads section as well...

True...in the definition of the word. I didn't read it as a meaning but more of an adjective.

Carleen, one approach may be to ask the managers you are already working with and see what they think about hte other parks and the other managers. They may give a heads up and tell you not to even bother. Then again, they may be good friends and they canget the ok for you...

If I feel strongly enough to place a cache somewhere that it may require me to do so, then I guess I would be prepared for that. Some places it may require that, other places it won't. I contacted 2 cities here near me about placing caches in their parks. I emailed the Park directors of each city with a spill about geocaching, what it's about and some of the benefits. I gave them the geoacaching.com website address for further understanding of the sport. One city replied back that they would be interested in me presenting it at a meeting of theirs. The other replied back with a yes that it's ok. They so happened to have been hiking and they found one and their friend explained what it was. They were very openminded about it and said it sounded like fun. They (She) told me I was welcome to place caches in the parks and even suggested a particular park. The other place said I could come to the meeting which was like a month away. I never did contact them back to go and do it as it was not worth it to me. I had already received pernission from one city and once I place caches everywhere I want to there and if I feel the need, then I may go back to the other city. But if someone feels the need to place a cache in a certain place and it means that much to them, then they may wish to go through an "extensive" presentation.

I don't think it would be correct to call them ignorant because they didn't know about geocaching and caches that are on their land. I've been on, around and own an outdoors website and never even heard of it until this year. I never read about it before and no one has ever mentioned it before to me. I've told numerous people that never knew about it before and i'm sure there are those who have been to my website and message board have learned about it. Even those who own GPS's already don't know about it, but I wouldn't call them ignorant. Banning because of convienance? Perhaps. They know nothing about it except people are leaving things (they may conceive as trash or potential trouble) in places that people may have to bushwack to or other problems. It's not their duty to research what it's about. It's much easier for them to say not to do it and not to even know anything about it. All they see is what they see happening and what they hear. Now if geocachers firstly introduced them to it and give them the whole spill about it and they see that it's harmless, then they may allow it. Some still may not, but that's life....

I didn't realize that Geocaching was secret... I'm sure sooner or later a land manager somewhere will hear about it somehow. I would much rather think that if it was presented to them first from a cacher first of all than that of a second, third, or fourth person wanting to place a cache when all the others before hand never did ask. If I feel it's right to ask permission to place a cache, which I did, but there were no other caches there in the parks, then I should not be blamed if your cache gets yanked because they went out on their own and found out you hada cache there. Now I don't think it would be right to say well there are "X" amount of caches already there. That's pointing a finger. Just asking about it doesn't mean you are telling on the others. Have you ever introduced someone else to caching while on a trail? Someone see's you looking and poking around and they ask what are you doing, do you say "I can't tell ya"? No usually we, geocachers are friendly and enjoy inviting and involving others in this great sport.

WOW! I'm a Vet myself (Air Force) and was a Military brat before that. I've also worked in Law Enforcement and have worked with laws, rules, regulations, guidelines or whatever you wan to call it. Freedom allows me to Geocache, period. It doesn't allow me to do it wherever I want to. Just because there is not a sign or posted rule that defines geocaching as a prohibited sport, does not mean it's welcomed. As someone else mentioned, there may be other things that are prohibited that this falls under. Many people and organizations would probably allow the caches if introduced to them first on a positive note. If something could be worked out with some guidelines from them. But, people think that because it's considered "public" that they can. Well, many "public" places will only allow you there at certain times. Isn't it your right to be there when you want? No. They have their reasons for not allowing it. One may be because of an experience where people were doing it already without permission. Other reasons could be due to security, litter, safety of vegetation, animals and people. Some may be just jerks. Some places that don't allow geocaching, do allow other things that may be more harmful, such as hiking and mountain biking. Hiking is allowed usually on marked trails. Geocaching nearly tends to go off the trail. Mountain Biking is normally on marked trails as well and they have fought to get it allowed (as someone else stated). Perhaps a movement to get geocaching allowed is needed. I do understand those that say they should be able to place them without permission and what more harm could it do. I guess it would depend on the extent and the location. I believe that it's in the best interest of the sport to work with the land managers and get it allowed. If we aren't going to work with them first of all, then why even have associations? Also all the work that individuals have done with land managers and agencies would be a waste. There are over 75,000 caches. The highest amount that I have seen anyone have found is about 2000-3000. I don't see the big urge in placing more caches in places that could cause problems. Especially if you aren't sure if it will or not. Jeremy has spoken, so be it......

I asked permission in a place before and was denied. Due to the fact that caches had been placed there before and apparantly they didn't like it and/or considered it litter. So I didn't blow any whistles as there were none there. But a cache owner who previously placed a cache somewhere and didn't ask permission, can not get upset with another cacher if they do ask permission and the other cachers cache is exposed. Unless of course the wannabe cache placer pointed out that there were others there. Did that make since?

I liked it to. I'm surprised it's not on here automatically as it's almost exactly like the Ikonboard sofware, which has it. It takes the location used when to register and place it there. Jeremy I can suggest a site to take a look at that uses the Ikonboard software and some of it's hacks. With your knowledge you can figure out how to code it in there..At least give you a shortcut...

I was skeptical in the beginning of using PDA's. Many were insisting it was a necessity which actually depends on your style of caching. I decided to give it a try with my wife's pocket pc. I use free software. When I get the queries I upload them to both the pcoket pc and the gps. The nice thing about it all is it's a compact source of cache pages. The cache pages don't look exactly liek the website, but pretty darn close. Nearly all the info except the maps or any pictures are there. All the text, the hint(which is automatically decrpyted), the type (micro, regular, etc), the ratings, coordinates and a few of the latest logs. It saves on not having to print out cache pages and I can have them all downloaded pretty quick. I can also organize them differently (cache name, waypoint name, owner name, distance, etc). If you are going after one a week or so, then it really has no bearing. If you do several at a time or like to do them on the spur of the moment, then it's awesome. Also if you are traveling, you can set up a pocket query for the area you are going to and have it available without ahving to carry a notebook full of cache pages. Feel free to email me or pm me if you have any more questions...