Flatouts

You are correct... LOL I happen to know Sailor Dave personally and he didn't give it any thought. He was able to place it with permission which is more than most cachers do for parking lot type caches. The people that have done this one rarely go into the building, if they find it they sign the log and move on. To say this is some form of advertisement is ridiculous - if that were the case every parking lot cache (with or without permission) would be advertisement. A simple solution would be to get ride of all parking lot type caches...

We have one submerged cache. It's actually a micro. Over the last few years it has been attacked by a gator and the floating part sunk. We fixed it and probably got another 6 months out of it before a missing persons search resulted in several caches being disturbed. Some were confiscated others probably just discarded perhaps. We don't know but figured the floating aspect isn't working as immediately after the search this one was gone. Now the cleverly disguised cache lays on the bottom. So far it has remained in tact... Unfortunately still gets a lot of DNFs... Mostly because folks don't seem to want to do caches in or near the water. I say that because we have one that isn't in water but you have to wade out to fetch it. It's even in a designated swimming area. Although both indicate the fact that they are in the water or you have to enter the water the most common log reads "Arrived at or near GZ and this one must be in the water and we weren't prepared to get wet"... Yet we have a multi that stage one is a good 30 feet from the water and pictures indicate that folks can't resist going in the snake and gator infested water to look for it?? Stage two requires some climbing and wading, in the dark again gator and snakes are a high probability and other creatures like bats and creepy stuff yet folks are all over it and love it... Go figure... Water caches accessible by boat but not submerged do seem to be more popular in our area. IMHO

I don't usually post but this one was a quest of mine and it finally happened so I felt compelled... (borrowed the image from ~BANK TB page as I don't have it activated yet nor decided what I will do) Clan Riffster had one of these awesome coins that was near and dear to his heart and for commemoration of our first cache which he seem to really like the Camouflage he placed it in the cache... He said if you love something let it go and should the Geogods smile upon you it will come back to you... I asked "Are you crazy" and he replied "Perhaps" then said, "It will probably never be heard from again" as if to say goodbye... Sadly it was never to be heard from again... At the time Sean wasn't that into collecting of Geocoins and knew that there are ones that stand little or no chance of survival in the wild but that is what they are made to do "Travel". However, he has started to realize that not all things are the way they once were and some are worthy of holding onto for a while so they can be shared with fellow Cachers that wouldn't get the opportunity to see these works of art and talent of creativity or cause. He now has started his own private collecting and so have we and a few others in our area - boy is that endeavor addicting... Destination of this one is undecided... Have to think about it for a while. There are many we really want to mark our milestones like Original Stash and Project APE - which are at the top of our list now especially because we have completed the Triad... Hopefully someday we will be able to post our excitement about these arriving... Should anyone be in a position to help us with these two, we would greatly appreciate it!!

Got ya.. It can get messy real quick. I'll certainly walk away learning to be more careful and considerate. For the record a logging of a discovery doesn't add or change mileage - Dipping however is a totally different story. A discovery isn't intended to move the bug/trackable but it is nice to hear comments/stories or that it is merely still alive. I allow discoveries because I am sharing my collection not attempting to gather long miles. This creates and furthers interest in this particular aspect of geocaching and to some extent forms commemoratory with fellow Geocachers. At least it has for me. I must admit with what I have invested and my coins and they started being locked out becoming worthless paper weights, I would be quite angry as would anyone else I'm sure. Man the word virtual really causes hair to stand on end... Pretty sure it is the grabbing and logging into different caches to purposely generate mileage when you don't posses the actual trackable that is the concern. That does seem like a lot of work just to cause irritation. Then again it's probably those same people that log caches they have never been to whilst dipping coins they don't have... I would say to the Traveler Owner OP that, if these discoveries are annoying then the advise shared is solid. However, to lock out a TB because of discoveries should be at the owners discretion. If someone was logging for mileage there would have to be proof and accountability and the owner should have the right to shut it down. But to sell something such as the TB/coin(s) ability to have its own cache page space and trackability then just lock it out because it appears to not comply with policy or rules. That is a lot of responsibility to the point of hostile even. But I can see the point and perhaps reasons it could come down to that. I sure wouldn't want that job as it is a loose loose situation. Everyone looses and at the owners expense. What a waste. Yes I will be much more careful and will be certain to point out carelessness if I see it as I wouldn't want it to happen to me either. BTW How would one go about Logging one of them Car TB Decals, Teeshirts, body Tattoos, etc., while adhering to the policy of physical placement from cache to cache. How could anyone police that... This is all way to complicated. I'll just be careful not to add to the problem. Thanks to the OP this is a great thread that people can learn something with.

Well a search reveled this topic I started over a year ago... I figure this one is a data base input delay but just in case I'll post it and see if it was overlooked. HQ10 Travel Tag This tag is just over an inch in diameter and features the official HQ10 Icon celebrating the 10 year anniversary of Geocaching.com.

Well I take pictures rather then write down TB#'s in fact that same TB Gigantaur we took our picture standing next to it at GW8 so we could log it. Then the next day it was at the Troll and we took pictures of the Troll and the Bug being so big was right there in the middle (I at one point thought it was a different one but matched the numbers up). As we do on our vacations we post our pictures of our journey. Most of the time we weed out TB photos and just post the subject photos. Yes we post on our facebook account and a few in cache logs - usually not TB/coins. If you were to look at the photos from the events of that weekend you would see Gigantaur few times on those cache pages. My point it that it's not always intentional. I have well over 2,000 pictures from our journey to GW8 and so forth there is no way I could edit through all those especially from a hotel on a lap top or my phone. My friends on face book most likely wont be posting any discoveries. They don't hardly post discoveries of coins and bugs they actually do see and handle... Most only log in and out of caches as they pick up and drop off.. LOL Our coin collection is just over the 300 mark... It is impossible for anyone to write all those down. On another note, each coin/trackable page is detailed with all the info and or story line I can find and pictures of the actual coins (usually from where I purchased them from when I buy them - thus the tracking number isn't there). BTW I have checked with each vendor about using those pictures and they have never had a problem. In fact Geoswag made some changes once where you couldn't download them and I contacted them and they fixed it. Same with a couple others and some even make an archive of sold out coin so you can still retrive the pictures (just wanted to clarify my usage of them)... Now I build using coinlogger a HTML file - when my collection goes to an event and folks look at them it is a lot to take in. I tell them they can discover them from our profile page - they are going to find out a lot more about the coins, who designed it, produced it, size, process and if there is still any available (in most cases there isn't). I feel they are getting more out of this than just merely glancing at them in some book. I do this because I really like collecting these coins and wish to share them with others who like to see them. Over the last few years only a small handful have taken on discovering all of them and the feed back I get is that they really enjoyed finding out about each coin and its story. For the coins out traveling I do the same thing but they are not included in my html/list for discoveries. Those coins are developing their own stories as they move from cache to cache. Eventually I'll release coins from the collection to the wild. I do not see any harm in people enjoying them no matter how they were able to obtain the tracking number. Out of 300 in 4 years only one was grabbed in error by another coin enthusiast and was real easy to set straight. These are produced for enjoyment... I don't see how discoveries either physical or virtual can cause a problem but abuse of any aspect can. As the owner of them It should be up to me if I want to allow discoveries virtually. If the coin doesn't belong to me then I agree it should be my responsibility to keep the actual tracking number as safe as possible only allowing someone to physically discover it while in my possession. Hopefully I'm not to far off base here... I will in the future be even more careful with pictures that might have a tracking number no matter where we post it.

Sorry to see one of these not make it - I would have said get it to a Rest Area cache on I95 with a big note on it - but I'm afraid it's to late. Hopefully you were able to get it moving... I knew about these from doing a Geocaching Demo here in Florida for BSA the kids were very excited about their cars making the trip. I forewarned that some might not make it and they seem to already know but were hopeful. Sad... It may leave a bad taste of trackables and or Geocaching for those that don't make it in time.

Wow I'm not the only one... Wondering what the Lackeys are thinking about the comments we are making. I know they have been busy lately so perhaps it's just been over looked. For those that don't understand Private Collections perhaps you will a little later. Those of us that do this so we can share with others are not the minority. There are many facets to this game/sport and the best part is it's unique individualism.

Orlando Gets my vote, just got back from NW so one in Fla sounds good to me. I couldn't afford to fly my coins if it were held anywhere else...LOL

Yes that's totally a PITA and really shouldn't be. It's nice that the wizards are hard at work and trying to make improvements and they need feed back to measure the progress. I'm sure some of them do the same things we do and eventually it will render a change to make life better. Many Thanks to all the efforts that go into managing a multi national multi level system with a pretty large account base. Hats Tip in their direction for sure!

Thank you it seems a little better but: If a trackable is at the default "Unknown" or "Non-Collectible" the owner can still move it into their Collection ("Unknown and Non-Collectible" are synonymous per Knowledge Base) I still fail to see the purpose of person "B" placing Person "a"'s coin that they do not posses in their collection. I do not know anything about the "discover/note only" feature - totally unaware and didn't see anything about it until this post... I will have to find out more. Oh I see you are referring to the log - if it isn't in a cache then you only have 2 options when logging. IDK when Grab was removed but probably a good idea in some ways (course it could be that was that way all along and I just didn't notice - after all I'm not so bright to begin with). This could be the resolve of one of my concerns. But leaves me wondering why it's not mentioned in the Knowledge Base with the discussion of Collections. For an item to be in your collection it can't be in a cache the way I understand it so far. It has to be in your inventory to be moved into your collection I think. This leaves me wondering how person "B" could ever move Person "A"'s coin into their collection unless they actually retrieve/grab it from a cache via tracking number. If it was marked as Collectible and in the hands of the owner it gives you 3 options in a log - Discover / Note / Move to inventory - However, if it is default (Unknown / Non-Collectible) and still in the hands of - you only have 2 options to log - Discover / Note - which doesn't make much sense to me because if you go to your Tackable Collection you can move it to inventory?? Oh Man, my brain hurts... Maybe it's just me but it seems like it is way to complicated to be useful. Sorry but I'm fairly certain you added to my confusion LOL But thanks for trying. As of now it would appear you can't really move your collection into a cache/event - this is pretty popular in my neck of the woods. It would be totally cool if you could and keep it separated from the Real TBs in the cache/event.. So so far all I see is the ability to contain your collection/coins in a separate place online without using up GC#'s to do so and by doing so keep your active inventory smaller for ban width and logging purposes. That in it's self is pretty cool but still a PITA if you want to indicate its travels and show appreciation of a particular cache/event.

I think that is explained earlier in the thread by Eartha

I can see that there are those that have thought this through much more than me but because I posted this in the "Other" thread and it seems perhaps it would be better addressed here on "This" thread I've C&Ped it... IDK if that is the right thing or not but I'm giving it a shot... I must be dumber than a bag of hammers... I still do not get it. My confusion and I get this weird sensation I'm not alone is the "Status Types": Collectible The coin may be collected by another player. Non-Collectible The coin cannot be collected and should continue its travels from geocache to geocache. Unknown The owner did not choose Collectible or Non-Collectible upon activation. These items cannot be collected by another player. Status Types; Can Be Collected / Cannot Be Collected - this is extremely confusing to me. I have a large collection with a dummy archived cache as a vault - I've been collecting and sending coins and TBs out for years now without any confusion and fairly good success rate. Although I understand and appreciate the major improvement for having a spot to place my private collection rather than a dummy GC. The Collection and Inventory concept is an awesome idea. It's the Status part that is apt to cause many problems and confusion for many of us and especially newbies. At a time when so many newbies are getting involved and not necessarily getting the proper introduction or education before jumping in it would seem this could have disastrous results. The way I see it is the "Status" is a huge waste of time and effort as I think it's a safe bet NOBODY will want their coins or TBs Collected by another player ever! Thus all will remain as "Unknown". In my stupidity, I think that setting the Status to "Collectible" should mean this is a Coin/TB that is part of a private collection and not released into the wild - thus another player Can Not Keep it or Collect it. Further a Non-Collectible would mean it is not part of a collection and thus would travel from cache to cache and I guess the thieves/uninformed could keep it if they so choose to be scum bags. In fact I'm thinking that the wording it's self could be part of the problem. Say if you made it "Collection" , "Non-Collection" or "Unknown" item as the status then: "Collection" would indicate it is part of a collection that most likely would not be out traveling the world from cache to cache and is part of a players collection that might be brought to events for discoveries. Further as a Database key this could allow an owner (providing it was programed for) to move the collection into the Event/Cache - in the Cache page's inventory it could show up as "Collection" indicating to all that the item is not really in the cache and is part of a collection and just there for Discoveries. "Non-collection" would indicate the item was placed into the cache for someone to pick up and continue its journey. Again this would make for a nifty Database key (if so programed) allowing separation on a cache page inventory/history. Helpful to those that are trying to sort out what TBs are really placed into the cache and which were just dipped for mileage/discoveries. Typically the cache page owner. "Unknown" Well this would mean its anyones guess and the default should be the same as it ever was - or the same as "Non-collectable". Now I do understand that the principal is basically the same - to me it is far clearer and there would be NO MENTION of Collectible by other players - that is just an out and out suggestion for people collect the Coins & TBs (just plain stupid IMHO) and that is enough to discourage anyone from placing them out in the wild. To me it is like a BP attempt at fixing the oil disaster... An Obvious problem exist and the solution is worse then the initial problem or a mere no so well thought out solution that just makes it worse. If you want another player to keep your coin - as in you are selling or gifting then that is what Adoptions are for. I know that this concept was initiated after many hours of deliberation and thought by humans with far superior intelligence than I and that I'm but a mere mortal low life that as mentioned before dumber that a bag of hammers... I do hope some intellectual out there will help me to understand - please help! Until then it seems my best bet is not to dabble with this new concept or if I should embark on it perhaps leave all as Unknown until clarification makes some remote amount of sense. Whatever the response please be kind I mean no harm and as I stated several times I'm dumber than a bag of hammers so be amiable... I had added a second notation so I'm combining it here (Hope that's Ok) I would like to add one more little consideration - if this was set up to make it easier then perhaps the moving of ones Collection into inventory in order to dip it into a cache for whatever the reason could be handled differently. Say you want to put your collection in a Event - if it were made possible one could dump from "Collection" to the Cache Inventory without actually placing in the Cachers inventory first. After all it's not really in a physical cache and at the end of the day it would be put back into the cachers collection. You would have 2 Two selections - your inventory and your collection. Or the inventory from a log and straight from your collection into a cache page. Perhaps the wizards could make it so you could move the collection or parts thereof into a cache page inventory and back out with out cluttering up the cache page log - it would show up in the inventory and in the history as a "Collection item" keeping it separate from the actual and thus also keeping it from being in the cachers inventory... Just another thought from the peanut gallery. I like the other thoughts on this thread and if they were utilized this could be the coolest thing since the advent of Geocaching...

I would like to add one more little consideration - if this was set up to make it easier then perhaps the moving of ones Collection into inventory in order to dip it into a cache for whatever the reason could be handled differently. Say you want to put your collection in a Event - if it were made possible one could dump from "Collection" to the Cache Inventory without actually placing in the Cachers inventory first. After all it's not really in a physical cache and at the end of the day it would be put back into the cachers collection. You would have 2 Two selections - your inventory and your collection. Or the inventory from a log and straight from your collection into a cache page. Perhaps the wizards could make it so you could move the collection or parts thereof into a cache page inventory and back out with out cluttering up the cache page log - it would show up in the inventory and in the history as a "Collection item" keeping it separate from the actual and thus also keeping it from being in the cachers inventory... Just another thought from the peanut gallery.

I must be dumber than a bag of hammers... I still do not get it. My confusion and I get this weird sensation I'm not alone is the "Status Types": Collectible The coin may be collected by another player. Non-Collectible The coin cannot be collected and should continue its travels from geocache to geocache. Unknown The owner did not choose Collectible or Non-Collectible upon activation. These items cannot be collected by another player. Status Types; Can Be Collected / Cannot Be Collected - this is extremely confusing to me. I have a large collection with a dummy archived cache as a vault - I've been collecting and sending coins and TBs out for years now without any confusion and fairly good success rate. Although I understand and appreciate the major improvement for having a spot to place my private collection rather than a dummy GC. The Collection and Inventory concept is an awesome idea. It's the Status part that is apt to cause many problems and confusion for many of us and especially newbies. At a time when so many newbies are getting involved and not necessarily getting the proper introduction or education before jumping in it would seem this could have disastrous results. The way I see it is the "Status" is a huge waste of time and effort as I think it's a safe bet NOBODY will want their coins or TBs Collected by another player ever! Thus all will remain as "Unknown". In my stupidity, I think that setting the Status to "Collectible" should mean this is a Coin/TB that is part of a private collection and not released into the wild - thus another player Can Not Keep it or Collect it. Further a Non-Collectible would mean it is not part of a collection and thus would travel from cache to cache and I guess the thieves/uninformed could keep it if they so choose to be scum bags. In fact I'm thinking that the wording it's self could be part of the problem. Say if you made it "Collection" , "Non-Collection" or "Unknown" item as the status then: "Collection" would indicate it is part of a collection that most likely would not be out traveling the world from cache to cache and is part of a players collection that might be brought to events for discoveries. Further as a Database key this could allow an owner (providing it was programed for) to move the collection into the Event/Cache - in the Cache page's inventory it could show up as "Collection" indicating to all that the item is not really in the cache and is part of a collection and just there for Discoveries. "Non-collection" would indicate the item was placed into the cache for someone to pick up and continue its journey. Again this would make for a nifty Database key (if so programed) allowing separation on a cache page inventory/history. Helpful to those that are trying to sort out what TBs are really placed into the cache and which were just dipped for mileage/discoveries. Typically the cache page owner. "Unknown" Well this would mean its anyones guess and the default should be the same as it ever was - or the same as "Non-collectable". Now I do understand that the principal is basically the same - to me it is far clearer and there would be NO MENTION of Collectible by other players - that is just an out and out suggestion for people collect the Coins & TBs (just plain stupid IMHO) and that is enough to discourage anyone from placing them out in the wild. To me it is like a BP attempt at fixing the oil disaster... An Obvious problem exist and the solution is worse then the initial problem or a mere no so well thought out solution that just makes it worse. If you want another player to keep your coin - as in you are selling or gifting then that is what Adoptions are for. I know that this concept was initiated after many hours of deliberation and thought by humans with far superior intelligence than I and that I'm but a mere mortal low life that as mentioned before dumber that a bag of hammers... I do hope some intellectual out there will help me to understand - please help! Until then it seems my best bet is not to dabble with this new concept or if I should embark on it perhaps leave all as Unknown until clarification makes some remote amount of sense. Whatever the response please be kind I mean no harm and as I stated several times I'm dumber than a bag of hammers so be amiable...

Gee ashnikes Rough ride on your post for opinions. As you can see there are plenty that will share. Perhaps more than you thought. Perhaps more folks that are close by than you might have also thought. Breath Deep and do not let it stop you from using the forums, asking questions or even expressing your concerns. That is what it is there for and we all learn as we go. (However, because this is an international forum & sport there are some important guideline you might want to familiarize yourself with so your post don't get chewed up and spit back at you - attitude weighs heavily in here sometimes). The best advise probably was if it bothers you ignore it and move on try to look at the positive (tolerance). Course with P&G's in a parking lot there really isn't much IMHO so one could see why the focus might shift...LOL It it makes you feel better perhaps a NICE note to the Cache owner and then just let it go. No worries - Hope to run into you on the trails.

I should add that if somebody contacted the real Forest Defenders with a good explanation of what Geocaching is about and what we do then they might see us in good light. A preventative measure before this fruitcake gives her view and closes their mind to us. Not that the Forest Defenders are of a different mind set but seems they want people to see what they are attempting to defend and have some reality. Just Say'n I might myself when I get home from work... But I think GS Deocaching could be better represented by someone from GS head quarters...

Interesting that her posted link to being in the news is in its self down grading to her own cause and as some Officials of the Parks have stated on record her activity is illegal - apparently they wont welcome her actions/efforts as much as she seems to think... http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20100531/...&news01ad=1 She must have a twisted sense of reality. Could report the blog as abuse - seeing how its Google run and she is using it through Groundspeak's web site and Geogaching.com they may take our side as the injured if presented to them by GS. So "Defamation/Libel/Slander" (of Geocaching, Letterboxing and Forest Defenders (the real one)) and "Hate or violence" are two possible avenues - this would only serve to cut communications to followers but not sure there are any... Course I think of PITA and how no sane person could follow them and they managed.. So you never know. I think this would be best handled by Ground Speak IMHO. I do think that GS should step in and working with Park Services and authorities and put an end to her rampage before she decides the last remaining US APE Cache is trash or the Original Stash Let me add that a cache that isn't maintained by the owner and is in dismay really could be considered nothing more than mere trash - some of the descriptions on the Blog seem to indicate that is the case with some of the caches... In that respect I sort of respect her but feel the proper way by reporting it through Geocaching.com on the individual cache page would be the better way. IMHO

Still having problems here, you guys aren't trying to type each one in for us or something are you... If so hats off to your efforts to keep things going. Us little guys really do appreciate all the efforts that you put forth and certainly understand there will be problems from time to time that need correction. Issue: PQ submitted no speedy results received. http://www.geocaching.com/seek/nearest.asp...f2-5a6325624360 Hoping it will be received before we head out that way approx 50 miles. Please feed the gerbils!

Ditto - appears to be a couple threads on this - It's still not working. 3 steps to reporting a bug: 1. What you were trying to do - Run a PQ 2. What happened - NOTHING 3. What you expected to happen - Have my PQ run BTW: Other Conversions from the cache page aren't working either (figure someone might see this here and fix it also?)

Same thing was going on a FTF for a new puzzle instead spent hours trying to figure out what is going on. If I'm going to travel out to this area I want to do others nearby... I could have just hand entered and gone and probably should have. Darn... Next thing I know I get a visitor and lost so much time I gave up on it. I just came back to see if the PQ ever ran and nothing. Day is shot I'm disappointed but I could have done something about it so I have nobody to blame. I do hope this is fixed soon as it put a real damper on any weekend plans.

It's now February 5th... I would suggest they get a new server. JMHO Got to be a little more going on than a little server problem. Sure they can, there is always Ebay. Observation: Seems more of the ones we thought were more solid are having problems. Really surprised at this one. I don't know what to think.

Thanks Sandy

The GC code or name wasn't the issue. The issue was that they require the coordinates, cache ID and Cache Name.... If were to set up a rouge cache listing site that's pretty much all I need info wise. Sorta like Facebook, when you're asked to supply your Email account for an application for verification - it's not Facebook asking they already have it - if you enter your Email address most likely you're going to get stuff you might not want or even asked for. It's like stealing information rather than going through proper channels and approval to get the information. Sometimes these Channels and Approvals are put in place to protect the privacy of the user and or web site information. When you supply the info you defeat the protection and then you wonder why you are getting all this junk - then who do you blame? Why Facebook of course... Sigh I just felt it better to ask first... I was brought up that the only dumb question is the one asked after you screwed it all up.

Hi, please don't get discouraged we lost our first 3 or 4 and were gone for over a year or 2. Some were coins (nice ones we wish we had never sent out) and a couple TBs we had hopes they would compete for distance and return by Christmas (a year ago). Wont give you the blow by blow but some of them have shown up recently. One of the coins in fact. It was in Canada for over a year then popped up in the US just a week ago. Where as the other coin just like it was in a Geoyouths Bookbag at school in a locker less that 50 miles from its starting point (grabbed at a local event 2 years ago). We contacted this young Cacher several times and its never been returned to the wild. We finally found one of these coins (Madhatter Neverlands Gold USA) on Ebay to add to our collection because I doubt we will ever see the ones we sent out into the wild again. But we are OK with that. We have a TB that went onto a ship with a geocaching crew member with promise it would be dropped over seas in just a few days. That was 2 years ago... Still nothing. We also gave another cachers SCGA geocoin to a NASA employee in hopes it would be the first geocoin into space - after a year of failure it was returned to us stating it would never happen because NASA officials wouldn't allow it due to the popularity of Ground Speak geocaching participation - a month or so later another coin was taken up and brought back with an official certificate that it had gone the distance... You never know what will happen or not happen... Here's the problem. Others don't have the same sense of urgency as the owner, some get lost in the bottom of the backpack, some dropped into a lonely cache in the middle of BFE but forgot to log and some folks drop out of Geocaching never to be heard from again and of course new Cachers treating as swag. There are as many variables as there are TBs. Never put something out into the wild/world that you can't part with and don't let the pace in which it moves discourage you in any way about the game. Treat all TBs like you would want yours treated and just press on. Lots of the TBs travel successfully and you will find that folks will go out of there way to do the right thing (rescue, repair, replace parts of and in some rare instances take photos - it could happen) most of the time. Like a good cache, sometimes it's the quality and ability to survive the wild that determines the longevity. We've found 4 things that help us in Geocaching; there is no whining in Geocaching, put one foot in front of the other, progress is measured in smiles and never give up! Looks like you have done all that can be done (I assume you contacted all the possibilities) so we wish you Good Luck, just remember it's all about the Journey and Cache on!