-CJ-

What I'm trying to say is that a CO who has already lost N his caches may understand risks better than a seeker who hasn't lost anything. If I loose my containers, time for maintenance, nerves, stuff, magnets, whatever, this makes me think better of possible consequences of "unstealthy behaviour" then if I haven't lost anything but 15 minutes of my time.

Back to the topic. I installed Google Translate with offline dictionaries so the problem is half-solved. It's a bit awkward because I have to copy-paste text all the time and if it's large I also have to scroll up/down. It works at home but I'm not sure it would be my favourite game when it's raining outdoors with +7 centigrade. Will try. As for what NYPaddleCacher said earlier (pardon me, I'll partially use your text to save time), while looking at cache listings for Berlin I saw that there was an event the evening that I was there. Every will attend log was written in German. I posted a note, in English, saying that I will probably attend (I've got some work in Berlin and the event is pretty far from where I'll be staying). I didn't ask if there would be any English speakers in attendance however. Hopefully there will be at least some of them. However, I don't think I will write notes in traditional cache logs just to find out if there are any people who talk English, in Berlin or Leipzig. I'm not sure about what exactly caches I will visit. And of course I don't want to convert a small technical issue into anything bigger.

It's more then planting. A seeker who doesn't hesitate attracting attention of the crowd by climbing fences and examining benches while people are sitting on them doesn't risk much. It's the CO who will need to maintain the cache. In other words if I'm a CO and I'm carefully hiding something in front of a CCTV camera I... well, I will most probably avoid this because if even I'm not questioned by the guard my cache could be removed soon and I will have to go and find another place. If I'm a seeker... why not search in front of a CCTV camera?

Yes. Yes.

Thanks for this clarification, NYPaddleCacher.

Hmmm, this thread made me think of finding more translation software for portable Android devices and compare them "in field" for geocaching purposes. This would never be published anywhere at geocaching.com I guess but I think that I will be able to find a place where local cachers may get acquainted with the results. This could be helpful to compatriots because not many people speak/read English around here. Geocachers from other countries could probably find this research useful too.

Ideally, I'd love to have a companion of course. However I will have rather short time for Leipzig, mostly working hours, and I have some places I wish to visit as a tourist. I think that all this would be incompatible with possibilities/interests of locals. I don't know the traditions in Leipzig/Germany though. Need to think about it. Because I'm not into just getting more smileys - geocaching map is a kind of a tourist map for me. I used to visit interesting places and know more about them. With some popular attractions I probably can avoid geocaching reading pages and use some guides. But (luckily) there are numerous caches devoted to some objects that are not listed in any guides (or one needs to search thoroughly for any data about such places on the net and the result would be most probably in German too). For instance, in Helsinki I was accommodated not in the downtown but in a district not described in any guides. By visiting caches around my place I knew many interesting facts about the area, typically known by locals. I'm happy that I managed to see this "hidden Helsinki" thanks to geocaching. True. As for hints, long ago I visited a cache in Kiev with description in English language. I believed that nothing could prevent me from finding this hide in a minute, both D and T were low, satellite signal was pretty good, but the problem was that I completely forgot how to translate the word in the hint. That word was "spruce"; will probably make other cachers laugh since it's so simple and I obviously knew it. However, sometimes you find yourself in a situation when you just feel some gap appeared in your memory for this particular term and you can do nothing. Sadly, I didn't have any vocabulary with me and there were no muggles around to ask a question (though such question would sound strange, I think). After all, I located the container after good half an hour of careful search of all trees in the area but I remember this experience.

Partially the lack of stealth behaviour may be explained by the fact that many seekers do not have any experience as COs (or have very limited experience). They don't think the way CO could think. (Some of them are happy to give advices later on how to place geocaches though). For instance, I sometimes witnessed people searching in places rather unsuitable for caches without trying some obvious possible locations first. Being not stealthy at all (this is what this thread is about) these people attracted even more attention. I once saw two guys climbed a small fence, crossed the lawn and searched a cache in holes of several old trees. "Why are they doing this? - I thought. - It's clearly said in the description that the cache is magnetic. Moreover, it's so obvious that in winter it will be problematic to walk in deep snow on the lawn being unnoticed by muggles. There are some metal constructions easily accessible from the road. One could explore them easily with a minimum of stealth applied before trying "the lawn way"". I seemed to me that these guys didn't thought in a way "where I could place this cache if I was a CO" at all. They just honestly followed their GPS device to get to the GZ. Luckily, it was night already, the area was poorly lighted and no muggles were around, so I'm not worried about that someone paid attention to their adventures. However, in some other circumstances such behaviour could be harmful to the hide. Besides, seekers usually don't deal with consequences of their stealthy/not stealthy behaviour. They just leave the place to never return there again. It's the CO who finds that the cache was muggled. And it's usually impossible to connect this fact with any particular seeker. While recommendations "how to help my cache survive" can be effective because they influence the COs schedule and resources directly, the recommendations on how to be stealthy on others' caches are much more abstract: whether I follow them or not, it doesn't physically affect me. It's a theory put somewhere between the worlds of seekers and owners and since (as I said) few seekers have serious experience as owners they may have less understanding of consequences for this or that particular cache because they ignore/forget being stealthy. I believe there will be people who will say "no, you're wrong" (need to look how many caches they own) but if this is true then probably "general documentation on stealth" should be better given from a perspective of a CO so that seekers who read it may see how their actions affect someone's life.

I will also visit Germany as a tourist and geocaching will be not the first purpose. I remember how fruitful was my geocaching in Ireland - I used caches to get to areas which I wouldn't even think of, many really nice places, each one with its own history, and I got much information from cache descriptions. With texts in German only I will most probably loose this part of the game because "automatic garbage" isn't so great for tourism. I'm looking through the caches in central Leipzig now and have run into only two of them with English translation into and one where the the CO translated the hint only. I understood already that I have to get rid of all puzzles, multisteps and traditional caches with difficulty level of 3 and more. I discovered however that automatic translation from German into English is not as awful as from German into Russian (obviously, English and German languages belong to one group). I read the whole text about Edward Grieg and could understand quite clearly how this Norwegian composer had been connected with Leipzig. I think that probably this way of translation could be an option. I will take into account your recommendations on smartphone apps (yes, I usually geocache with a smartphone when I'm in a big city). BTW, does anyone know good offline translation apps for Android? I mean, have you ever tried one for geocaching and were satisfied with it?

Our local geocaching culture (if it exists) could have many problems but I think that this is not the case. Examples that I provided in the first post were actually from three different countries. You said the cases I described were obviuos exceptions. The first time I witnessed this approach I decided it was an exception. But after that I saw this again, again and again. So, you suggest acting like with people who post spoilers in their logs: talk to the guy, explain the situation, try to have the spoiler removed. I could do this but I don't witness every cache search in my city. I know about such cases only by personal meeting or from a log or PM. Both happens rarely. WEll, I could probably invest my time and nerves and try to influence a few minds post factum but I doubt this would influence the situation anyhow. It could easily be a waste of resources, not effective at all - and this is what I would like to avoid. Another issue is that I don't feel myself to become a personal geotutor for an unknown person without his/her request. So, I'm still thinking. What is that general documentation on stealth that you said was clear? I'm asking because I was told recently that stealth was supposed not to camouflage the cache hunt but to protect cache seekers from being troubled by muggles. Then probably it's not that clear.

redsox_mark, as for your point 3: you could notice that many people in this thread expressed their opinion that placing caches in "overmuggled" zones is itself a part of the problem. After that, there come tutors who explain how to place caches properly. This is a different topic however. One can open a new thread, I think. In my original post I tried to find out why people didn't bother to be stealthy at all whatever the cache was. The idea that caches in extremely busy spots are likely to be muggled again and again sounds obvious. The owner who chose such a spot should understand possible consequences - this idea is obvious too. With people repeating this I think that seekers could have their minds shifted a bit from their responsibility towards the responsibility of COs. And this could be an additional reason for acting like being invisible. A seeker believes that the CO already took care of the safety of this cache so it's pretty much OK to search for it without any stealth.

I don't want to control anyone, narcissa. I'm thinking about the way to educate people - like you do in your posts. But first I wish to know their preferences and understand their way of thinking - and know if I'm good enough to be an educator.

I'm going to visit Germany soon. While preparing for this trip I found that cache listings (including hints) were typically in German language only. Sadly, my knowledge of German is poor and it's likely that I may fail at a cache because I will not be able to translate the hint correctly. I wish I had an opportunity to exclude "non-translated" caches from a PQ but I don't think that the website has this option. The only way I see now is to just upload all caches to my GPS device and look through all the hides in some particular area "manually", one by one, before going there. Then probably apply some automated translator (like Google translate) to single-languaged caches and see if it works. Translate descriptions and hints, save them to text files, save these files and upload them to my device too. Pretty much working. Any other suggestions? (Without a requirement of using of any online services in field)

This is why I opened this thread. The general idea is to choose better way of acting. If I see that someone can't be educated (like in your example) then I probably should not waste my time. The best way of education would probably be to own caches. When I own say 20 physical caches and have to look after them I definitely won't behave "like a bull in a china shop" with caches belonging to other players.

Thanks a lot MountainWoods for the post. Yes, sometimes it works great when "you act like you know what you're doing". When I organized one of our CITO events in 2010 I visited the place of the future event a couple of weeks before the date - just to see how much litter was there. I drove my SUV close to another tent and asked their inhabitants sternly: "Hello. Aren't you littering here?" Poor tourists were impressed by appearance of a big bearded man in camouflaged jacket and answered: "N-n-no, of course we aren't littering... We already packed all our litter to take it back with us... look, there's no litter around..." - "Well, well, - I replied after looking around, - good for you. Have a nice rest". They obviously took me for a forester or ecological policeman. And it worked perfectly because I got information quickly and was able to understand the situation with litter quite soon. However, with geocaches it's different because someone's property and part of the geocaching sport is involved. I cannot judge upon all countries but here "acting like you know what you're doing" can easily turn you into an object of attention.

Yes. Moreover, in our country I propagate the idea that people should always mind the snow level while placing caches.

team tisri, thank you for your example. The narcissa's suggestion made me upset but now I see I'm not hopeless; at least, I own no caches like one described by you. I would also add that none of the caches in my initial post were like that.

Let's put that ridiculous theme aside. In fact, it wasn't the topic I raised in this thread. In my examples (see above) people were not "stealthy as always" - they were not stealthy at all. And I was asking why. I do have. You're right. My first cache (placed in 2002) was deeply in woods and the first team which tried to get to it cursed me because they walked strictly following their GPS device and found themselves in a bog. No risk of muggles though. They are obviously a problem, but in my initial post I excluded them and talked about experienced cachers. Thank you for telling me about LPC caches. I can imagine how much trouble someone more persistent then me could have with them.

Whom do you mean by "we" and "us"? I mean, did you include me in this "we"? I would also like to know how you (and some other colleagues who seem to share your approach) distinguish between "ridiculous" and "non-ridiculous" caches? This is important to me. If my cache was muggled not because someone did his best to attract attention of a group of kids playing nearby but because the cache itself was ridiculous I wish I know the criteria. (again) There are no lamppost caches around here.

This thread was about why cache seekers were not trying to be stealthy at caches where muggles are around. From my point of view this could be because of a) not knowing why and how to be stealthy (newbies), cultural issues or c) their voluntary choice. With "a" it's a matter of general "geocaching education" and we could improve it in our local community by translating more materials explaining this technique, different ways of not attracting unnecessary attention to your actions, etc. With "b" it's more difficult because traditions are usually deep and it takes more efforts to persuade people that their usual way of searching may not be perfect in other parts of the world: what is good in central London may be not the best idea near the Lenin's mausoleum in Moscow. As for "c", this is the most difficult part since these experienced cachers have their own understanding of what is "effective stealth" or "ridiculous location" and these things can hardly be influenced by a guy like me with lesser experience and worse English.

I would add that (sadly) many cachers just don't make their DNF logs. Sometimes the cache is normally found, say, 10 times per month; then you see that the activity of visitors fell to zero. After a while someone reports his DNF. This is enough for me to understand that the cache is most probably gone.

dprovan, thank you for clarification but sadly it didn't help much. I cannot understand even the very first point of your new message "I apply the same amount of stealth regardless of the situation"

Why?

I cannot say anything about LPCs because I've got zero experience with them. You say that the CO should restore the cache regularly if you believe that stealth is not effective. Every other person can draw the line where he/she thinks it must be. Some people may think that all caches near shops are behind the line - stealth cannot be applied effectively, so just go and grab them. Some will probably think that all caches in busy areas are of this kind. For each cache there will be seekers who can say: "The CO must take into account that we just look without trying to be stealthy. This is not our responsibility. He must be prepared to replace the cache again and again". If this is the reason for acting like being invisible (in my examples) it's not an issue of cultural differencies.

We rarely have a chance to check how effective we were while being stealthy. If even some cache was muggled next day after me one cannot be 100% certain that I was the troublemaker. I really don't think that we may judge on "amateur" or "pro" stealthiness (unless someone owns a Qualified Stealth Consultant certificate indeed). These opinions (including mine) are mostly theoretical. Anyway, in my examples cachers didn't even try to be stealthy. They acted like they were invisible. I watched some seekers mentioned in the first post (and others) from a distance and can say their actions looked rather strange. Perhaps they followed the idea quoted above. They were sure that if they act like that nothing bad would happen. Sadly, those workers left their places to find out what was going on. And people who were sitting lazily on a bench also looked intrigued. It could probably be a cultural issue. Perhaps this approach works in cultures with high respect to other person's privacy and individuality. In communities where these traditions are weak people may pay more attention to those who are different. Imagine you have your hair coloured orange. In one country people will just pass by (assuming it's your hair and you chose the colour, nothing special about it), in other country they will smile to you and remember Milla Jovovich, and in some region you could get a whole village to gather around you and stare at your unbelievable hair. Same with geocaching. Say, there's a building, windows, ground floor, people outside of it. One gentleman is enjoying his cigarette, two kids are talking to each other, a girl is chatting on her iPhone, a young man with flowers in his hand is looking at his wristwatch - he's waiting for his sweetheart who's late. Among them walks a middle-aged bearded man in a Gore-Tex parka with a backpack and a camera looking carefully under every windowsill, one by one, examining them (not so clean) with his hands. I can imagine that in some cultures it's common and no one pays attention but if you ask me "Who looks unusually and attracts attention in this company?" my answer will be obvious. One of the reasons to start this thread was to find out if it was the case. If it's a cultural issue then we (COs here) could probably softly remind cache seekers that their tactics isn't that perfect here. If it's all about them ignoring possible damage to the cache then it's different. I personally would agree with the "confidence" idea with an addon: one should act like other people in the area. True. Lamp posts don't have that skirts in our country.