seventhings

Thought some of you may find this interesting. I wonder if anyone can top it (I suspect someone can)> Background - the C&GS monumented T-sta VOLNEY in a rural area of Allamakee County, Iowa in 1961. No recoveries have been reported on it since the original monumentation. I have never coordinated my benchmark hunting itinerary with any other hunter (save fivethings and sixthings). [Although ArtMan and, to a lesser extent, Harry Dolphin can apparently read my mind and get to marks in New Jersey just before I do.] So, given the facts and circumstances (remember, I live in Virginia), what are the odds of VOLNEY: ON0831 T-sta VOLNEY Will

TillaMurphs - Why West but not East? I've actually trespassed on both sides of the Mississippi, but I'm much more comfortable doing so in the West. Part of it has to do with the "wide open spaces" (and fewer eyeballs) aspect of the West. But it also has to do with my specific experience. I have, on one or two (or three) occasions, attracted unwanted attention along RR rows and interstates in the East (where I've done the majority of my hunting). Out West, I've walked along rows and across interstates and no one has ever taken notice. I also recall, during a discussion of RR rows in this forum several years ago, that there was a general consensus among the in-crowd that enforcement of RR property rights was significantly less stringent in the West than in the East. This seems consistent with my experience. Hence, my rules of engagement for RR rows and interstates. Will

Sean's Mom - We who hunt benchmarks wrestle with the issues you've brought up almost every time we go out to hunt. My personal standard is this: I never, ever do anything that I'm not supposed top do unless, of course, I'm pretty sure I can get away with it. I suspect that this is no help to you. So, on a more practical level, here are some more specific standards to which I (usually) adhere: I never go near schools when there are students in the vicinity, unless I can make contact with a responsible member of the staff and get permission to prowl around. The reasons for this are obvious. I never go on to private residential property without permission of the owner. Regarding posted non-residential property (agro or undeveloped), well, this is where the "can get away with it" standard usually comes into play. Dogs: Though I may have a good idea where the dog's "turf" ends (and beyond which he or she should not be a threat to me), I alsways remind myself that the dog may have a different idea of where his or her turf ends. Thus, I give dogs a wide berth. East of Saint Louis (plus or minus), I do not go onto railroad rights of way. To the west, I do not hesitate to trespass. Same with locations on or near interstate highways. On public road rights of way, I generally do whatever I want (consistent with not being hit by a vehicle or interferring with the safe and orderly flow of traffic). If conditions warrant, I wear an orange vest and put out an orange cone. Sometimes, the line between the right of way and private residential property is not clear (to the property owner, that is). In these cases, I treat the location as private residential property. I behave respectfully around places of worship and in cemeteries. I generally avoid any situation that gives the appearance as having "homeland security" issues. Not only do I want to avoid being detained, but I also do not want to distract those charged with such sites' security, etc. When in doubt about anything else, I just make a gut calculation: is the recovery worth the hassle. If I think it is, I do everything I can to look like and act like I belong where I am and that I'm supposed to do what I'm doing. I tend to dress like some utility worker on the job, so this strategy has worked well. If approached, I never mis-represent who I am. I start off by saying, "Hey, I'm just a hobbyist looking for a geodetic control point ... yadda yadda yadda". This works surprisingly well. Most people, official and otherwise, are initially interested in such eccentricity and generally respond positively. I am mildly risk-preferent and probably a touch above average in physical capability. Therefore, I occasionally pursue marks under conditions that I would not recommend to others. I am bolder when accompanied by either Mrs. 7 or fivethings. I become Indiana Jones when accompanied by the very capable sixthings. In the example you cite (bridge with no trespassing sign), I would tend to treat such signs as merely advisory, at least as they apply to me. Hope this helps. Will

Richard - Superb research, recovery & narrative. Hall of Fame material. Kudos. Will

Paul - I am convinced that the geodetic azimuths listed in the boxscores in NGS datasheets are relative to true north, not magnetic north. The magnetic declination for the Washington, DC, area is - 12 degrees. The gridlines on USGS topo maps are oriented true north-south. The boxscore in the NGS datasheet for HV4442, (WASHINGTON MONUMENT) states that the geodetic azimuth from the Washington Monument to HV4165 (FINIAL ON THE DOME OF THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS) is 91-52-43.2 degrees. Using the NGS INVERSE calculator and the adjusted horizontal coordinates for the two above-named stations, the calculated forward azimuth from HV4442 to HV4165 is 91-52-43.2167 degrees. So, for whatever it's worth, the boxscore for HV4442 and the NGS INVERSE calculator agree. Now, if I plot a line between the Washington Monument and the Library of Congress on the Washington West USGS topo sheet (both stations are easily and reliably identifiable on the chart), extend the straight line to the west of the Monument so that it crosses several north-south gridlines (just to have more than two measurements upon which to base my conclusion), and measure the angular difference between the plotted line and the several gridlines, I get 092 degrees every time. Conclusion: If the boxscore for the Washington Monument is representative of all NGS datasheets (that is, if "Geod. Az" means the same thing on every datasheet), then "Geod. Az" is an expression of an azimuth (or direction or bearing) relative to true north. Will

pgrig - Looking at the NGS datasheets for your two stations, the BOXSCORES list the "Geod. AZ." for the RMs. Geodetic azimuth is, to the best of my knowledge, belief and experience a true (not magnetic) direction from the station to the reference mark. According to the NGS' website, the magnetic declination for the Boston, MA, area is - 15 degrees (the magnetic pole appears to be 15 degrees west of true north). My question to you is this: you state that you found the RMs by using magnetic bearing (or, you measured the magnetic bearing of the RMs from the station). What do you mean by this? Do you mean that you took the value of the geodetic azimuth fopr RM1 of MY4530 (Geod. az. = 038-55-00 degrees) and determined that the RM is actually 039 degrees magnetic from the station? What device did you use to measure the magnetic bearing? Handheld magentic compass or handheld GPS unit? Will

monkeykat - Another excellent report, thanks. Will

monkeykat - Excellent report, thanks. Will

As suggested above, when a mark is RESET, the original mark seldom survives. Occasionally, both the original and the RESET survive. Very rarely, the original "out-lives" the RESET. See KK0564 and KK1344 in Littleton, CO. KK0564 KK1344 If there is a RESET, you can certainly search for both the RESET mark and the original. It's a good way to learn to live with disappointment. Will

Occasionally, I will use the method described by PFF, above, to find a reference mark. It is especially helpful if the RM is more than 50 feet (about 15 meters) or so from the station. I find that it's not very helpful if the RM is within 35 feet (10 meters) of the station and/or I'm working under tree cover or otherwise have a poor signal. With a poor signal, the CEPs of the station and the RM overlap if they're within 35 feet. Another technique I use is this: From the boxscore on the NGS datasheet, I note the azimuth and distance (converted from meters to feet) for each of a station's RMs. For example, let's say t-sta BITSKO has an RM at an azimuth of 245 degrees [true from the station] at 23 meters (75.5 feet). Then, I find the station (sometimes with or usually without help from the GPS). With the station's adjusted coordinates in the handheld and the handheld set to GOTO the station, I start at the station and walk generally a bit south of due west. I'll alter my course northerly or southerly to get the "tail" of the GOTO arrow to move toward and settle on 245 degrees. [Remember, if you travel in a straight line, the head of a GOTO arrow always "falls" toward the bottom of the compass rose and the tail always rises toward the top. This is an old, round-dial radio beacon navigation technique with which old, round pilots are familiar.] So, for example, if the tail of the GOTO arrow settles on 235 degrees, I'll walk more northerly until the tail rises to 245 degrees. Finally, I walk "outbound" on the 245 degree azimuth (radial in pilot talk) until my GOTO says I'm 75.5 feet from the station. Nine times out of ten, I'll be within six feet of the RM. Were I out on the prairie (really good signal) and the RM was 120 feet from the station, I would more likely use the NGS FORWARD program to calculate the RM's coordinates. From my experience, FORWARD calculated coordinates are alomst as accurate as adjusted coordinates (at least as sensed by my handheld which is plus or minus 10 feet under most good conditions.) Will

The financial impact of tampering is the least of our problems! Little known fact but, these geodetic control point things also serve to affix the mud world through the intervening fabric of the geoid to the round, hard spheroid underneath. If you mess with enough of these anchor points, the solar wind will start to rip the surface of the Earth right off. Then, the resulting imbalance will cause the whole thing to roll off the back of the large turtle that's holding us up. It goes downhill (literally) from there. W Edited in vain attempt to approximate Standard English

LSUFan - Welcome to benchmark hunting. Black Dog Trackers (il guru di tutti gurus) is absolutely correct. I would add one thing: were you inclined to report a questionable recovery to the NGS for Deb Brown's decision (as the BDT suggested), do so via e-mail to Deb (and not the automated recovery reporting facility at NGS Datashhet Page Will

foxtrot_xray Disks and Rods: 1,587 total; 936 scaled, 651 adjusted Stones: 70 (with PIDs), all adjusted Intersection stations: 452, all adjusted Other things (chisled "+", etc.): 65, all (I think) scaled Total: 2,174; 1,001 scaled, 1,173 adjusted At least one scaled mark found in each of the lower 48. I live in Northern Virginia, so the the "most distant find" (in/near Chinook, WA, near Cape Disappointment) is about 2,400 miles. Will

Photo(s) optional but strongly encouraged. Most experienced benchmark hunters will post a photo of the disk itself plus a second photo (or third or fourth, etc.) from 50 feet away (or so) of the mark's area. Personally, I will not log a "Found it" unless I've got a current photo to add. The primary objective is to have fun, but it's not fun for me unless there's a photo. Will

The Holy Grail, Boundary Stone sub-category: JU3840 Boundary Monument 82 Tangent Stone: The object with the PID is actually a stone set in 1849, but abutting it is a dark gray gneiss stone set by Mason and Dixon on June 18, 1765. The first stone they set. A nice, historic twofer if you're in the neighborhood. Interestingly (to me, anyway), the inability of colonial surveyors to run and mark a straight line from the southwest corner of Delaware to this point is the reason that Mason and Dixon were engaged to run their famous line. Had the colonial surveyors solved the problem, the "Mason-Dixon Line" would probably be called the "Watson-Parsons-Emery-Jones Line" today. JU3840 HU1820, Boundary Monument 1 DE MD, the first Portland Stone monument that Mason and Dixon set (on December 18, 1765). HU1820 How about HU1443, Boundary Monument Initial DE MD - set by colonial surveyors on April 26, 1751. The PID does not apply to the stone, but to the disk in its top. Stands next to a nice lighthouse. HU1443 One of my favorites, HU1546, Boundary Monument E-W 5 DE-MD. Set on or about April 27, 1751, by colonial surveyors, it is the oldest object fashioned by the hand of man that has its own PID. HU1546 Finally, there are JU3840, ARC Stone 2, and JU3849, ARC Stone 5. These both have a monumentation date of 1/1/1765, the oldest such date in the NGS database. This despite the fact that Mason and Dixon set the stones on June 18, 1765. JU3851 JU3849

I agree with foxtrot_xray Since the station is (was!) defined by adjusted horizontal coordinates and you found supporting evidence of the location with one good and one destroyed RM, I would probably log this as DESTROYED on the Geocaching datasheet (with photos, of course). I would also send an e-mail to Deb Brown with photos and a narrative, asking her advice regarding how to report this recovery in the NGS database. I've had several similar cases in the past - when the monument was intact and stable, and the stem of the disk survived, Deb has advised me to log the station as FOUND POOR. If the monument was out of the ground and/or had been damaged to the point that neither the disk nor stem survived, she has reclassified the station as DESTROYED in the NGS database. I also agree that the ultimate status of the station probably hangs on whether there is an underground station.

techiegrl64 - This is the correct place for your inquiry. The mark that you found appears NOT to be in either the Geocaching.com nor the NGS databases. This is not surprising: there are gazillions of marks that have never been documented for inclusion in the National Spatial Reference Systen (the NGS database). Chances are, the station you found is well known to the local US Army COE office. If you wish, you could create a Waymark for your station. You probably have everything you need: Coordinates, photos, description of the area, designation, etc. etc. Creating a Waymark for a station that is not in the NGS database is, for hobbyist purposes, the equivalent of "registering" the mark. Good hunting, Will

catdad - While this situation (two marks with identical SCALED) coordinates is not very common, it is perfectly explainable. SCALED coordinates MAY be up to 600 feet from the actual position of the mark, though, in my experience, SCALED coordinates are more typically 100 - 150 feet from actual. It is possible, for example, for the scaling process to yield an error of 600 feet west of actual for Mark A, and an error of 600 feet east of actual for Mark B. Theoretically, then, these two marks could be 1,199 feet apart and still share the same SCALED coordinates. My example is extreme, and, in my experience I've never seen two marks 1,199 feet apart that had the same coordinates. I have seen, however, marks 250 feet apart that had the same. If m&h's observation is correct ("...seem to be a little more than 500 feet apart."), I would say "wow, more than 500 feet apart and with the coords", but I wouldn't say it very loudly. The way to solve this mystery/limitation/problem is to take a good fix for each mark with your handheld, and include that more accurate position in your log for each mark. Furthermore, you could convert handheld reading to the NGS' DD-MM-SS.S format and include your handheld position if and when you report your recoveries to the NGS site. Good hunting! Will

PFF - Excellent tip!! Thanks, Will

PFF - Excellent tip!! Thanks, Will

If you are sure that the thing you found is, in fact, the thing with the PID (that is, the thing that is described in the datasheet), then it is perfectly OK to log it, even if you did not find the "secondary" marks (reference marks and azimuth mark). However, you should take care that the disk you found is the primary station, and not one of the reference marks. It is very common for inexperienced and/or careless benchmark hunters to find a reference mark and log it as if it were the main station. Sometimes, the reference marks and/or the azimuth mark also have their own PIDs and datasheets, and can be logged as well. Typically, when an experienced benchmark hunter finds a station that has reference marks and an azimuth mark (and those secondary marks DO NOT have their own PIDs), the hunter will make some effort to find and document those marks, and include photos of them in the log. Experienced benchmark hunters love to log something like: "Found the station as described. Found RM1 22.6 feet north-nothwest of the station. Found RM2 45.0 feet south of the station. Found the AZ 0.55 miles southeast of the station and at handheld coordinates Nxx-xx.xxx W0xx-xx.xxx." Marks that have reference and/or azimuth marks associated with them typically have ADJUSTED (very precise) horizontal coordinates, so there is no value in including the mark's handheld coordinates in the log. Usually, the reference marks are nearby (within 10 to 100 feet - the true bearings and distances are included in the "boxscore" portion of the NGS version of the station's datashet), so there is little value in including the handheld coordinates for the reference marks in the log (although many of us will do it if the reference mark is greater than, say, 50 feet from the main station. Azimuth marks are another matter, however. They are typically 0.25 - 1.00 miles from the station, and are often very difficult to find (assuming they don't have their own PID and coordinates). The NGS datasheet provides a true bearing to the azimuth mark, but not a distance. When I find an azimuth mark, I always include the handheld coordinates. This makes it orders of magnitude easier for the next user to find the AZ. Will

archerbox - It looks like the disk you found is mounted in the headwall of a culvert or bridge. Do you happen to have coordinates? 7

My personal favorite- It's a four-inch Lewis and Clark/Corps of Discovery II commemorative disk, PID = DJ5118, at the Missouri-Yellowstone Confluence Interpretive Center, Buford, ND. 7 Edit: spelling

I have found six DF's; four adjusted, two scaled. Al were set/documented by state agencies (one each WV and IL, four WI). w

Looking for those previously NOT FOUND - If I'm doing a little benchmark hunting while enroute from one place to another, I will generally NOT look for marks previously reported as NOT FOUND by CGS, NGS, USGS or other agency staffed with professionals. It's just a matter of not having enough time. However, if the mark was previously reported as NOT FOUND by USPSQD, I will make the time to look for the mark - I just recovered JU3473 and JU3474, both of which USPSQD reported to the NGS as NOT FOUND in 2004. If I intend to stay in an area for a while, and have the time to hunt marks in a leisurely fashion, I will make a point of looking for (at least) a few of the NOT FOUNDs. Like most other experienced benchmark hunters, I have experienced that special satisfaction that comes from finding a mark that an NGS profesional could not find. In many cases, the reason the mark was previously NOT FOUND is obvious: the bridge or building was razed, new construction covers the mark, the highway was widened and the mark is now under fill and concrete, the landowner reported that he plowed it up and dumped it in the lake, etc. In such cases, I think it is fruitless to spend any time looking for these marks. But, it's often worth a shot if the mark was reported as NOT FOUND and the recovery report gives no good reason for the failure. I would recommend that new benchmark hunters spend most of their time and effort (at least for the first 200 - 300 searches) concentrating on marks that have not ben reported as NOT FOUND.