frex3wv

Wintertime: Don't blame you for not reading the whole thread - it would take abit of time for sure! This thread is specific to searching for marks not referenced anywhere online. The help I was hoping for was that some of the folks here could use all the different sources at their disposal and info I provided to give me some visual idea of where I should be looking. I admit - the descriptions seem obvious - but when on scene - boy how it is easy to get all turned around! Especially when the marks were placed at least 50+ years ago! Roads expanded/widened, signs removed/location changed etc etc etc. hence the challenge of these specific marks and the fun in looking for them. I am still not at all good at using a map and crosshairs scenario to get coordinates etc. A simple, put in layman's terms help on this would be a great thing! (ALSO - looking for thoughts on post 243 above!)

Need help: Anyone have a sense of where I should look for this. I went to the area today but felt turned around. General area coordinates are: 38 13.651 081 38.606 Here is the USGS description: "at top of ridge at head of 4 mile and Davis Creek, 45ft SE of centerline of rd. at pipe line crossing; 21 ft. S. of centerline of rd.; 18 ft. N. of 12" oak tree at edge of bank; directly between 2 state forest signs marking brier creek trail and middle ridge trail." (BM 1316) And - 1.3 miles away from this mark and away from the forest boundary I need help with this description: 22ft N. of centerline of rd. at hairpin curve on hill; 21 ft. w of center of N headwall of stone culvert; 4 ft west of twin poplar tree; BM 895.1

*BUMP* See post with questions above.

Gee thanks. Nothing like seeing everyone elses cool finds to make my finds seem so ordinary! UGH. Great thread though - and great posts one and all!

Thanks - just what i needed - yet another type of mark to go looking for. I don't use gsak - so would anyone who knows how to look quickly and easily try to see if there are some of these marks in WV? Any info would be a appreciated. GREAT finds kayakbird!

First off (and off topic): Good to see your post Artman - I notice you haven't posted recently. I hope this is just due to being busy with other things/projects/hobbies etc and that all is well otherwise! (And you have some catching up to do, by the way. See threads below!) Very interesting topic - and since YOU posted it - YOU get to find out where there is a list of these most interesting objects for us! Keep us posted LOL. David

Was looking for a USGS gauging disk today and happened upon a US Army Corp. of Eng. disk right next to what I think is a USGS ref mark (chiseled square) My question is: would those surveyors have looked for USGS marks that were within a few feet of the mark they were setting? Would anything about those marks be in their notes (and how do I get those notes?) As an aside - if they did look for the marks, they never got in touch with the USGS about it to report their success or failure (bn no notes on my sheets) - even though they were feet away from a long standing USGS gauging station! Lastly - I think I found a majorly disturbed (pushed over and buried) ref. mark - don't know for sure yet to. IF I did - what should I do?

Yellowstone: Nope. That was just my impression from your detailed comments. I am still interested in getting an answer to my question about reading the topo map of the area: "When looking at the topo map I noticed the east coast practice of indicating "benchmarks" with an "x" and the letters "BM" are not practiced in that area. Can anyone tell me what the "T" or "AT" is indicitive of? Are those non NGS marks (most likely USGS marks) or something totally different?" The topo map I used was viewed through this site: http://benchmarks.scaredycatfilms.com

I have no reason to doubt the info posted, and this may be totally wrong, but something tells me there are marks older then 1923 there just waiting to be found. I could be TOTALLY WRONG though. It is JUST a gut feeling (or wishful thinking)

Thanks for the unofficial "shout out"!!!! You seem to have an elaborate system there. Wishing I had even a 10th of your organization and system. On my end I can barely deal with these faxed over USGS sheets! Oh, I was ok putting them in order in a 3 ring binder, but actually figuring them out.....UGH (but to my credit, slowly but surely its getting some easier.)

AMAZING FIND Kayakbird! THIS is the reason I asked my questions above (still waiting for a response - no tone - just saying) I would love to visit yellowstone one day - but will really only want to hunt for marks never found or seen in 40 + years etc.

The topo map I used was viewed through this site: http://benchmarks.scaredycatfilms.com I am asking all these questions, I guess, to see if there really are marks that have NOT been found, but may still be there for someone to find/see for the very first time in many many years.

A bump (with new questions added:) My questions are: 1) of the 300 benchmarks you reference in the book - (or better yet of the 550+ you mention that are located in the park) have ALL the marks been found? (I noticed there were some not logged on geocaching.com or reported to NGS since placed.) 2) What marks are actually listed in the book? NGS and public works only, or USGS as well? 3) When looking at the topo map I noticed the east coast practice of indicating "benchmarks" with an "x" and the letters "BM" are not practiced in that area. Can anyone tell me what the "T" or "AT" is indicitive of? Are those non NGS marks (most likely USGS marks) or something totally different?

And yet another trhread revived in hopes it will do better and yield more info on go around #2! Here are a few new names to add to the ones above (that I STILL want info on) that I would like info on, pictures of etc: T.W.Cayce J.E. Alkire H.L. Zohn C.M. Peel Mr. E. Smith (USC&GS late 1800's) (first name may be Edwin)

Thanks for the input DaveD. I have started a new thread for this topic. In the meantime, I still wonder why some USGS survey parties mentioned meridian while others did not.

Well well, as if scaled NGS marks aren't hard enough to find, and USGS marks even harder, along came the Meridian marks topic (an offshoot of the USGS thread.) While looking for USGS marks, along came the mention of Meridian marks. Here is what DaveD had to say: "Meridian marks were set by both USC&GS and USGS. The marks were usually set in pairs a couple of hundred feet apart. In many cases they were set on or near the grounds of a county courthouse. The primary function of these marks was to provide an authoritative location where surveyors could come and compare their compasses against a known magnetic bearing (azimuth). Typically the USC&GS/USGS field team would determine the magnetic bearing between the two monuments then perform an astronomic observation, in most cases a solar (sun shot) to determine the "geodetic" or "true" bearing of the line. Surveyors could then set their compass on one station, backsight the other and determine what, if any offset they needed to apply to their instruments. In some communities it was required that surveyors perform this function annually. These stations also served as reference sites for the determination and monitoring of the change in magnetic variation. For many years USC&GS and USGS produced maps of local and regional magnetic variation. As the use of transits and later theodolites replaced the use of the compass for surveys the need for these stations for that application faded away. Today they are a true relic of surveying history." It looks like the description of these marks are even MORE vague then USGS descriptions! It also looks like even within a few years (I have been looking at late 1880's early 1990's) they change. While Dave D. mentioned a grouping of 2 marks not too far apart, here in my area - a grouping of 3 with a mile or more in distance has been noticed. Let the discussion begin!

While all that did make for interesting reading, I don't think an answer to my questions posted above were contained therein (or I missed them!) (specific to USGS marks)

My questions are: 1) of the 300 benchmarks - (better yet have all the 550+ )have ALL the marks been found? 2) What marks are actually listed? NGS and public works only, or USGS as well?

Received a new quad from the Rollo office recently. Not much new in the descriptions except that i did come across a seperate page that specifically had "Meridian" Marks. So the questions for the experts are: what are they, why were they used? Were they referenced on maps? Out of the 3 quads I have why does only one quad even mention them? As to my comments directly above - I asked about giving the USGS reports and they said they would take them in any format that was offered, but that for the most part these marks are now simply historical and nothing more. Again - over 50 pages of marks and almost zero reports of being found, destroyed etc. Hmmmmm. My point being - if a contruction crew/survey crew etc removed a mark - all they would have to do was make one simple call to the USGS Rollo office and that would be that.

If it were me, I would log AD6445 and leave the rest alone. While it is fun to log these intersection marks (especially when no one else ever has) the NGS isn't interested in them anymore. Just an FYI. If you found the disk too, I would also log AD2999. A finial is a piece at the very highest point of the lighthouse. The very top of that piece would be the spot measured etc.

Bill - You may be right, but it has always been my understanding that intersection points like the finial were not "occupied" but instead measured from a dustance. If it having a boxscore makes a difference to this understanding - then I may be learning something new (which happens all the time on this!)

John - point taken on the walkway description. I didn't catch that, but - that is a strange spot to choose when the top is 99.999999% of the time the intersection spot used. That choice simply adds to the oddity of these marks. Yes - NGS comments on this one would be great. We all seem to have some good questions here.

AD6445 reads: 01/01/1970 by NGS (GOOD) RECOVERY NOTE BY NATIONAL GEODETIC SURVEY 1970 (PEC) THE STATION WAS RECOVERED AS DESCRIBED. POINT INTERSECTED WAS THE FINIAL AT TOP AND CENTER. From this I am going to figure that the NGS made the call that this was the point intersected all along (beginning in the 1800's) This would make sense as alsmost every intersection point I have ever read about was the very top of the tower, cupola, church spire, chimney etc. The more interesting question might be - why barely any to no specific info on the original work done by the survey team is listed. Were records lost somehow? Some of the folks on here may have a very good explanation for why these are so undescriptive. I agree totally with John that the disk found is the tidal mark. The reference mark drill hole is just that - a simple drill hole in the floor.

WOW - cityhunter has laid it out for you in theory big time - now Cesa - go look for it and let us know!

John: While there MAY be a formal process with these USGS marks for reporting a KNOWN destroyed mark - my guess is they are handled differently then NGS marks (though I could be wrong - I will be calling soon and ask the ?) - here is why: These are sheets of paper - stored in a filing cabinet - that were hand typed back in the mid 1950's. Where they DID get a report - it simply has an added typwritten comment such as "(reported destroyed 1992.)" That is it! Having looked for and not found several of these that i am sure are gone - all I can tell you is - none have ever been reported. Also - there are no "recovery" reports either - not a single one. My comment about professionls was more aimed at contractor/construction folk who may simply have not cared or were careless. I do see what you mean about cutting cost - but would a surveyor knowingly allow a mark to be destroyed (and NOT execute the proper procedure) considering it is government property? That doesn't sound right to me. Hope that made sense!