infidl

We? I'm not seeing a "We" here. I'm seeing "You". Of all the responses in this thread, your's is the one strongest in passing judgement. Odd, because the only judgment that I care to cast in the context of this forum is: don't put religious or political or marketing materials in caches. How difficult really is that? These are in-your-face topics/items that are well known to cause controversy and discomfort and strife. Let's keep caches neutral. It's a game, and the successful find should end with innocent fun, not with some kind of "sell".

>You're fine then with caches holding pornography? Nope. I trade it out. (without ranting about it) Ah, so now what *you* feel is "ranting" is offensive presumably? Now now, you're supposed to have tolerance, remember? >You're fine then with discovering depictions of your favorite politicians with bullseyes centered on their heads? Nope. I trade them out. (without ranting about it) There's your issue with alleged "ranting". You should get over it, don't you think? But why on earth do you censor caches, removing what YOU consider offensive? If you're truly tolerant as you prescribe others to be, then you should leave the contents undisturbed. >You're happy to find graphic ads for escort services upon popping the lid? Nope. I trade them out. (without ranting about it) Censorship. Someone might like those ads. >I should also point out that I do the same with knives, bullets, food and other items I deem inappropriate. The whole "Trade Up, Trade Even or Don't Trade concept is pretty simple. That YOU deem inappropriate. So we are getting caches censored according to your sensibilities? Where's the tolerance in that? It's not just for breakfast anymore, remember? >The difference between us is that I will quietly trade up for an offending item, while you rant & rave about it. Your opinion of course. And I suppose gays shouldn't "rant and rave" about mistreatment either? Everyone is just supposed to quietly accept the offensive, no matter what form it takes, as opposed to publicly confronting it? > From here in the cheap seats, it sure does look like the problem is with you. Evidently because I have the audacity to complain about what I consider to be bad behavior on the part of the cache-tainting minority. And it looks like, from the even cheaper seats, that you have a problem with people who object to behaviors that you don't personally care about. Your opinions are yours, and you're free to state them, and mine are mine, and I'm free to state them. You're ranting just as much as I am. > While I don't share your personal, passionate hatred of all things religious, we do agree on many other items. Seeing how you equate quotes from of the Talmud, or the Qur'an, or the New Testament with porn, threats and prostitution tells me more about you than I care to know. Seeing how you jump to conclusions tells more more about you then I care to know. There is plenty in the so-called holy books that are simply vile to our culture, and to deny that they're in there is to read with eyes wide shut. And "equating" is putting words into my mouth. I no more "equate" these things than I equate apples to oranges. Yet I can observe that they both have a fruitish nature. >Wow. So mind reading is now on your resume? Yes, I have to compete with yours in this free market after all. You seem to understand innately that I have "passionate hatred of all things religious" among other things. > If you can tell me exactly why I left a copy of Lao-tzu's Tao Te Ching in a cache then you should be selling Lotto numbers, not hunting Tupperware in the woods. If you need to leave religious tracts in Tupperware in the woods, then you should be biding your time in a monastery, not hunting said Tupperware. > If you would take the time to get to know peoples from various world religions, rather than simply judging them out of hand, you might discover that many, if not most of them, are not the demonic subspecies of humans you wish to depict them as. More mind-reading. You know my inner most thoughts now? You're knowledge about the people I know now. Astonishing. Pot. Kettle. Black. > You might even discover that they are just people, fraught with the standard allotment of joy, love, anger and hatred of any other group. No doubt, and more power to them. I just don't want their beliefs pushed in my face, don't want the marketing materials, especially in a cache in the woods. If I'm curious about Christianity for example, I know where to find the information that I need. > Or in your case, maybe not. You seem pretty committed to your spiritual bashing, so you might not be willing to look beyond your deep rooted prejudices. Not a prejudice I'm afraid (again, more mind-reading on your part - truly an astounding talent you have there - I see a psychic hotline in your future), but an opposition formed based on actual actions that I see in our country (and, say, in Iran) today. Oppression of gays. The endless attempts to force creationism into science classes. And throughout history, the suppression of heretical thought, including scientific thought. I'm hardly a spiritual basher, I'm more than a little a Pantheist myself, though I don't believe in the supernatural one bit. I'm struck by the spiritual beauty of nature, which is one of the main reasons I'm in the woods. But, and this is key, I don't try to force my beliefs/feelings on others or propagandize them in any way to the unsuspecting. Many of the religious mainstream would consider Pantheism a gross offense, a pagan belief system of some sort. Giordano Bruno was executed for the offense of holding such beliefs. Did I mention the long history of intolerance among Western religions? >Those who know me will tell you I am a very religious person, (though you probably wouldn't recognize my particular faith), yet I believe strongly in a woman's right to choose, gay rights and equality regardless of gender, contrary to your prejudiced mindset. First, not a prejudiced mindset, but an opinion formed on experience and observation. I'm gratified to hear you say the rest of that. I suspect, based on that, that you don't proselytize much. > Don't confuse twisted dogma with belief. Well, if not belief, then I don't know what motivates a (slim) majority of Californians, well funded by adherents of the Mormon religion, to try to oppress gays at the ballot box. Clearly the dogma is twisted, but if not belief, then I don't know what else is motivating these voters. > To date, I have never stoned anyone, for anything. I don't doubt that, but plenty of others have, the latest just in the past few days I think. Or, I should say, the latest to make the news. >Unlike you, I believe that all peoples, regardless of their nationality, gender, faith, orientation and/or skin tone, have an equal right to be here, and to express their values, so long as they cause no harm to others. Ah, mind-reading again are you. I believe all of those things too. But I don't think caches are the right place to "express values" (that may well be in violent conflict with many cachers) because caching is supposed to be, as far as I know, light-hearted fun, a game. >If your mind snaps shut at the mere thought of spirituality, I think you are right. My mind is wide open, which is why I can take in all the available evidence without first filtering via your rulesets or anyone's. I am curious about all things. What I object to is attempts to *sell*, either goods, services, or religion, via caches. There's enough of that going on outside of our game.

Hehe, that's a good one!

Yes, and there equally as many people who will feel rotten spiritually at such finds. Gays for example, considering that Western religions widely discriminate against them and their alleged wickedness. But, well, someone really felt good putting that anti-gay stuff in there (such as the Bible, or so we are told) and someone will feel fulfilled upon discovering it. Someone will feel good about putting pornography in a cache, and someone will feel fulfilled by that find. What you find inoffensive and ignore someone else will find offensive beyond the limits of ignoring. One man's meat is another's poison. And the world is full of very different people, so who are we to pass value judgments? >If I'm strong and confident in myself and my own personal beliefs, then I couldn't possibly be bothered by someone else's. They have every right to believe what they want in my mind. We're chips off the same block then. I don't *care* what the religious believe. I just want them to leave me alone. Proselytizing via cache is not leaving me alone or anybody else for that matter. The cache is the prize at the end of the game, a game played worldwide by all manner of people: straight, gay, atheist, Muslim, Marxist, Capitalist, Republican and Democrat &etc &etc, and I think that the contents of caches should respect the viewpoints of all of these people as much as possible. This can never be done perfectly of course, but commercial, religious, and political content is easy to self-regulate if one wants to.

I think if you are capable of being "poisoned" by the mere mention of some Deity, you've got some issues which can't be cured by hunting for Tupperware in the woods. Personally, I can't quite grasp how someone can be offended by the beliefs of another. As for commercialization, wouldn't the pencil you mentioned qualify as commercial swag? I'm looking at two pencils on my desk, and I am seeing commercial logos on both of them, one for Paper Mate and one for Musgrave. Popeye figurines are also highly commercial, with the likeness owned by King Features Syndicate. This game is as light hearted as you make it. If you choose to stress over what tidbits other folks drop into ammo cans, you've got no one to blame but yourself. Tolerance. It's not just for breakfast anymore. Being *related* to commerce, as is virtually everything produced, is one thing. Advertising, that is to say, directly attempting to influence one to buy some product is quite a different thing, and that is what people here have complained about. > This game is as light hearted as you make it. If you choose to stress over what tidbits other folks drop into ammo cans, you've got no one to blame but yourself. Oh really? So anyone who considers some cache contents to be offensive is personally defective? You're fine then with caches holding pornography? If not you're overly stressing. Just take a deep breath and smile. You're fine then with discovering depictions of your favorite politicians with bullseyes centered on their heads? You're happy to find graphic ads for escort services upon popping the lid? No? Well, the game is as lighthearted as you choose to make it, and if you complain about any of this then you've got no one to blame but yourself. The person who feels it necessary to leave sectarian, superstitious mumbo-jumbo, or political propaganda, or material that is quite possibly insulting/offensive to a large number of people, has some kind of social dysfunction that prevents them from enjoying a space, even a space as small as the inside of a cache, that is free of such materials. The motivation of such people is not just having fun (as with innocent swag) their motivation is propagandizing/proselytization/commerce and sometimes just plain spreading insult and/or maximizing profits. And that doesn't need to be inside of a cache, there's enough of it in the outside world. > Tolerance. It's not just for breakfast anymore. Indeed. I ask only the same from the religious. Tolerate abortion. Tolerate gays - don't try to take away their equal protection rights to marry. Tolerate women as equals, don't stone them. Religions around the world have a very, very poor track record of tolerance. And let's not forget the endlessly broad brush of tolerance, it should include all manner of advertising, for all manner of products, as well as for all manner of political content, not limited to Rep/Dem but for _any_ kind of politics. Tolerance, it's not for breakfast anymore, it's for every moment of the day, waking or sleeping, of anything and everything. Thus endeth the lesson.

"He" - quite correct there, Sir or Madam. After a long cache-search, I hope to be greeted with lighthearted swag and a fascinating logbook full of entries. Encountering marketing materials of any kind, but in particular (to me) religious materials, casts a dark shadow on the experience. Part of the beauty of caching, apart from the hunt, is the simplicity and innocence of the swag. For a moment, we are all children. For a moment, politics, religious proselytization, and commercial marketing seem as if from another world. Our universe is one of rubber balls, a pencil, a Popeye figurine. Nothing poisons that experience, shatters the beauty, than discovering sectarian, political, or commercial materials amongst one's hard-won treasures.

I found my first ever Xian-spammed cache today. I thought it was pretty obnoxious. I don't go around putting Atheist propaganda in caches, and it's not like I don't have any of it. I don't expect caches to proselytize at me when I open them. Likewise I don't expect to encounter political propaganda of any sort. In my opinion caching should be just plain fun, that's the idea behind swag in the first place. It'll be the downfall of caching if it becomes a medium of marketing, ANY kind marketing, products, religion, politics. There's no shortage of that on the TV and internet, caches are sort of a safe-haven from all that ugliness. Where's the joy going to be when a religious person takes their kids out, pops open a cache, and immediately they're exposed to a copy of "God is Not Great; How Religion Poisons Everything - Christopher Hitchens" ? And if caches are to be vectors for religion and politics, why not vulgarity/obscenity or beyond? After all, just because it's in there doesn't mean that you have to read it, and if I put such swag in a cache, then as you say, I'm not "pushing" it on anybody, right? Don't forget that nobody should control what goes in the cache because nobody should control what I might see and like. Period. And as for the free-market suggestions, the "just don't go caching" &etc, it's not like you can avoid tainted caches. They're not marked on the website as having particular religious/political/etc content in them. I can't begin to address the "too bad, if you don't like such caches then stop caching", the Love It Or Leave It response ... the mind boggles. It occurs to me that by including a title/author in your post it could be said that you are guilty of the same sort of thing you are complaining about. Your occurrence is incorrect then. I simply posted an example, the first that popped to mind, of a book that might possibly have the ability to deliver insult to an xian world-view. There are many more, but space is limited, both here and in-cache.

I found my first ever Xian-spammed cache today. I thought it was pretty obnoxious. I don't go around putting Atheist propaganda in caches, and it's not like I don't have any of it. I don't expect caches to proselytize at me when I open them. Likewise I don't expect to encounter political propaganda of any sort. In my opinion caching should be just plain fun, that's the idea behind swag in the first place. It'll be the downfall of caching if it becomes a medium of marketing, ANY kind marketing, products, religion, politics. There's no shortage of that on the TV and internet, caches are sort of a safe-haven from all that ugliness. Where's the joy going to be when a religious person takes their kids out, pops open a cache, and immediately they're exposed to a copy of "God is Not Great; How Religion Poisons Everything - Christopher Hitchens" ? And if caches are to be vectors for religion and politics, why not vulgarity/obscenity or beyond? After all, just because it's in there doesn't mean that you have to read it, and if I put such swag in a cache, then as you say, I'm not "pushing" it on anybody, right? Don't forget that nobody should control what goes in the cache because nobody should control what I might see and like. Period. And as for the free-market suggestions, the "just don't go caching" &etc, it's not like you can avoid tainted caches. They're not marked on the website as having particular religious/political/etc content in them. I can't begin to address the "too bad, if you don't like such caches then stop caching", the Love It Or Leave It response ... the mind boggles.