2oldfarts (the rockhounders)

We had quite a day today! All of the marks we found today, the stated coordinates on the data sheet were way off. Several of them were off by almost a mile. What to do since Dave D. is retired now? The first map shows our Delorme Topo Map with the benchmarks where they were actually found. This second picture shows the map as we were going after them with descriptions and luckily BM Xs on a few. The BM Xs were right on the money and we then did distance from those to the next to help know when to start looking.... The green area on the right of this map, is where where the downloaded topo detail ended but the wrong coordinates placed them. In total we found 9 benchmarks (B 151 through L 151 - no I) with John spotting another witness post (F 151 one we hadn't seen on the way in and looked harder on the way back) with binoculars about a mile away and the clouds were building up rather quickly by then. It is not a good road to be on if it rains due to mud and dry washes becoming torrents, plus having to cross one nasty creek bed to get back. So, that will have to wait for dryer weather. It is after all, still Monsoon season here in the Arizona/Utah desert. We saw just one other truck all day once we got off the main road. This is a remote and lonely place, so we watch the skies and have a shovel with us, plus other things for the back country. John is getting the pictures ready for the logs and it will be a little while till he gets them all logged. You will have to look at some of the pictures.....moon scapes, I swear.... I will put links up for the marks when he gets them posted. Shirley~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

OK Bill. It was a wooden stand of some kind - but much larger than the one from this thread. It is still fun to find these bits of history........ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Shirley, that was a great find. You didn't happen to take any pics of the old Bilby Tower, did you? This mark is NORTH ROAD. It is mainly just a pile of wood now with a few still nailed together. We just knew what it had been since we had seen others that were still intact at other marks we have found. In the next picture you can see the remains behind the mark. If you want to see pictures of some of those remains of the ones that are more intact, I will find some after I get home from work and post them..... Just let me know if you are interested. Shirley~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Awesome! But, that was a heck of a lot of work for just one station..... I bet that made your day when you dug down and saw it. By the way, did you have permission to dig? Thanks for sharing. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Don't worry - I'm running right to the forums - maybe the "out of context" thread. The above post was due to an Off Topic regular. Those in Off Topic have a huge sense of humor..... Now, your answer to that picture of the mark you found out of the ground, not just tipped over. It has been totally removed from its "Flush with the ground" position. BUT, it is a triangulation station that has 2 RMs and an Azimuth mark also. It might even have an underground mark where the original station mark had been. This one might be taken out of the post and reset by a professional if they choose to do so. Two of the RMs have been redone already, so it has been used several times and marks redone so it could be used again. So, I would leave it alone. If you want to tell someone about it, you could Email Deb at the NGS with the picture included. Just do not take it without an OK by someone from the NGS - "National Geodetic Survey" who is the actual owner of that disk. Read the "Documented History" on the Benchmark page - RD2436 Damacsus that tells you about the other marks and lets you know it is still a valid station if any of those RMs or Azimuth marks are still intact. Shirley~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We had a very satisfying day today! We found some special marks and showed a friend (a surveyor) our favorite hobby. We picked up our friend and headed out towards the 'Winter Road' by way of 89 north out of Page to Houserock Valley Road. We went up and up onto what is known as Buckskin Mountain or the North Kaibab National forest. We wanted to see if we could first find PINON GQ0264 and followed our topo map program to where the Copper Nails in washers in blazes were supposed to be. We got out and started looking at the tree we first saw close to the given coordinates. It is definitely not a Pinon Tree..... Also, the trunk has twisted so much that instead of being on the North side of the tree, the blaze with the Nail and Washer with USGS BM stamped on it was found on the South side of the trunk! Now that was fun to see! We also found one of the RMs..almost eaten by the tree....nice.... Then onto the next old 1933 mark - this time a tablet and RMs NORTH ROAD GQ1273. This one was a hike and then the mark was found by our friend after moving several large rocks close to an old bilby tower. Then finding both RMs disks but the copper nails in blazes were nowhere to be seen. So, what have you found lately? Shirley~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is an old thread that has many mentions of blazes. We have found some of them and I am always looking for different things to take interesting pictures. That is one of the reasons I enjoy benchmarking.....beautiful places and views, vistas, interesting items (old wooden stands used by the surveyors), lookout trees, animals and just interesting things. Shirley~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If you go to the middle stone you can do a projection with your GPSr for the other 2 stones. That should put you very close to where you need to be and then follow the descriptions. You have been to the first stone, right, so you have accurate coordinates to work from? John Remember that the mark you will be looking for is on the meridian line and therefore the longitude you get at the center stone will apply to the other two stones that you seek. When you get to the coordinates projected for the other stone, you will only need to look straight north or straight south to find them. They will be along the longitude coordinates determined at the center stone. Should be an easy find, since they will be along the meridian line. Unless of course they are gone! John

If you go to the middle stone you can do a projection with your GPSr for the other 2 stones. That should put you very close to where you need to be and then follow the descriptions. You have been to the first stone, right, so you have accurate coordinates to work from? John

The coordinates I posted are exactly 1 mile each direction (not about 1 mile). You would then need to use the description for final location of the marks. John

Coordinates for 1 mile north are 38° 22.159' & 81° 37.509'. For 1 mile south they are 38° 20.352' & 81° 37.558'. I used Delorme Topo 9 mapping program. John

I think there is a delay on the ability to see how many have viewed a thread. I don't know if it takes a certain number of people viewing the thread or having someone reply to the thread before it will show the number of views, or some combination there of. John

Did you plot the station from (RM1) at 25° 29' and the station from (RM2) at 330° 38'? John Edited to designate the direction from each RM.

"KM0444''REFERENCE MARK NO. 1--STANDARD BRONZE REFERENCE TABLET SET IN SOLID KM0444''ROCK, 59.10 FT. FROM STATION, N 25 DEG 29 MIN E. KM0444'' KM0444''REFERENCE MARK NO. 2--STANDARD BRONZE REFERENCE TABLET SET IN SOLID KM0444''ROCK, 50.10 FT. FROM STATION, N 29 DEG 22 MIN W." If you read the datasheet and change the "comma" after "STATION" to "WHICH IS" then it reads correctly. So the directions read "50.10 FT FROM STATION WHICH IS N 29 DEG 22 MIN W OF THE RM 2". If it was spoken, then you would know that the person who wrote the description meant that the station was north of the RM. John Forgot to add that the direction from the RMs is stated as DEG, MIN E (of north) and DEG MIN W (of north). John

"KM0444''REFERENCE MARK NO. 1--STANDARD BRONZE REFERENCE TABLET SET IN SOLID KM0444''ROCK, 59.10 FT. FROM STATION, N 25 DEG 29 MIN E. KM0444'' KM0444''REFERENCE MARK NO. 2--STANDARD BRONZE REFERENCE TABLET SET IN SOLID KM0444''ROCK, 50.10 FT. FROM STATION, N 29 DEG 22 MIN W." If you read the datasheet and change the "comma" after "STATION" to "WHICH IS" then it reads correctly. So the directions read "50.10 FT FROM STATION WHICH IS N 29 DEG 22 MIN W OF THE RM 2". If it was spoken, then you would know that the person who wrote the description meant that the station was north of the RM. John

Let me see if I understand correctly - You are "venturing out into the wilderness" in the dark and have no flashlight. You could get hurt? Really! You will venture out at night without a flashlight, but want the safety information so you will be safe? I see says the blind man..... John

You really should stay home if barb wire is a problem for you. I never rely on someone else to tell me what may be a problem for them when I am out and about, since it may not be a problem at all, just their inability to deal with real life. My safety is the one thing I take seriously when I venture out into the "wilds" and I am the only one who can determine what might be a problem for me. As far as putting something on the cache page - more and more people don't read the cache page and just follow their GPSr (phones) after downloading the coordinates. We have had quite a few people make comments in their logs that reflect the fact that they didn't read the cache page or they would have known what to expect when searching for the cache. Take your eyes off the GPSr and see what is around you, you might actually see why the cache was hidden where it is (Some hiders actually chose where to hide a cache so others will enjoy the area.). If your eyes are glued to the GPSr you are Not paying attention to your surroundings! That is a good way to get yourself hurt or into trouble. John

I read that recovery as the 27th of September in 2009. John

Actually, it is a nice idea. Now, why don't you come on down the main page of all the forums and at the bottom of the "Related Topics" group of forums you will see "Off Topic". There you will find many "Oldersters" that have been sitting around chewing the fat, so to say. Go into the "Cheers" thread and look around a little. You will be welcomed there. Shirley~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Well, we downloaded Joshism's photo and turned it and then used photoshop to enhance it a little. What a little cornstarch would have done in real life for us, a little enhancement does now....... Notice the "5" now looks like the old fashioned "3" that was used in that day and age. So, that mystery is now solved...... Thanks Holtie. Shirley~

Judging by your picture, you did Not find AC0532. WYE A is supposed to be stamped 1934 and the one in your picture is stamped 1954. Not sure which one you found but WYE A was monumented in 1934. It is possible that you found AC0533. John

If you look at the adjusted coordinates on the NGS datasheets, you will see all 4 have different coordinates, which is why I suspect that each surveyor located on slightly different points on the lighthouse. One description says the finial and one says the walkway on the north/northeast edge. The first 2 recovers for AD6445 talk about a new station being created and that the new station is adequate for recovery of this station. It would be nice if the NGS were to read these forums and offer their opinions. John

It appears that all four are the same lighthouse, but the point intersected is different for each one. These are intersection stations that were sighted on from a distance, and it appears that since there was no clearly defined point of intersection listed on the datasheet, the surveyor picked a point to sight on and monumented the new point - hence the different PIDs. The disk on the stairs is most likely tidal mark 3 (PID AD2999). Just my impression of how things look. John

Go here for the CG list of marks and the reading of the official recoveries are a little easier, and a few pictures from the peanut gallery - (geocachers/GC BM hunters). I like to look at pictures - It helps bunches even if the pictures are of the surrounding areas..... I will let someone else answer his questions while I look at all of the logs and picts. Shirley~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ PS: If no one else has answered by the time that John gets home from work - 9 PM, he might consider answering......

OK everyone. Here is the classic example of the "Why" to NOT report "Destroyed" on any benchmark or bench mark unless you have the disk in hand or undeniable proof that it is indeed gone (as in a building imploded or a mountain top blown away by a volcanic blast). And the reason to go look to see if the mark is really gone if you see a mark declared as destroyed on GC. !!Do NOT submit any "Destroyed" reports to the NGS unless you do have that disk in hand or undeniable proof that it is indeed gone, because it WILL disappear from the their easily seen data base!! CLASSIC EXAMPLE! Early on in our hunting - 2003 - we thought a mark PID GP0270, H 405 had been destroyed due to bulldozing in the area that we thought the mark should be. Then one day, about a month later as we were driving past the area, I spotted a witness post - on the other side of the highway than where we had looked previously. I pointed to it and yelled "Witness post"! John tromped on the brakes and turned the truck around and we went onto a side road to look at the witness post. He got out his compass and finally found the mark buried in the sand. It was what we have now found out - things today can appear very differently than when the data sheet was written. It doesn't necessarily make the data sheet wrong, it is just how things have changed so much over the years. That is extreme fun of researching these old marks. So, have fun, just make notes instead of calling something destroyed, to save face. Shirley~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~