gallet

I bought one on ebay a couple of weeks ago for $290. From a very reliable seller. I don't get the rebate though as I'm not in the USofA

Apologies for the long post. Yes, you are correct in that up until this review, my opinions were based on common sense, I spent a month agonising over whether to get the HCx or 60CSx, for me the decision boiled down to how much difference the screen size made, and was the extra bulk worth it. I spent hours pulling out of proportion images off the Garmin site and measuring and resizing them in Photoshop so I could use the measure tool to take accurate measurements. I ended up deciding that the extra size made no difference but I wasn't 100% sure just about 95%. The only other consideration was which chip was better and I was satisfied that the HCx chip was not inferior. Up until now I have given my opinions. But I had an opportunity to buy a 60CSx for no risk as I could easily sell it, so I bought it with the idea that if I had made an error that I would keep the 60CSx and sell the Vista, there would be no financial penalty to me. I wanted to put up a review where I would not be accused of being a Vista Fanboy and pushing my own agenda. So at the moment I own both 60CSx and Vista and I'm happy to get rid of either. However it may appear to you, the truth is that I have no bias because I own both. I must be honest and say that I did not think that the less bright screen on the 60 would be much of a problem because I had heard that it was half as bright and I rarely want my Vista at 100%. This was the biggest surprise and I kept having to check that I had set the screen properly at 100% for the 60CSx because I couldn't believe it could be so dull. It was shocking to me to find that I needed to put the Vista screen at 20% to match the 60CSx at 100%. It was shocking for two reasons, one, that it's far too dull in twilight conditions at 100% and two, because no one has yet mentioned how bad it really is. In fact as soon as I saw how dull the screen was, I knew that even if there was an advantage gained by the extra size it would not be worth it. There is no bias here at all. It's a simple objective fact my vista screen at 30% is what I consider the absolute minimum I'd be happy with under ideal conditions. At 20% which is what the 60 is at 100%, is manifestly inadequate. I consider this to be the most important point because if you can't see the screen well under all circumstances then it defeats the whole machine. I have a couple of pairs of ziess roof prism binoculars 8 x 20's and 10 x 25's the 8's are nicer and it is very difficult to notice any real difference in magnification and this is a 25% difference. The difference between the 60 and HCx is that the 60 is 10% bigger, and that is even discounting the lower res, so in effect it is worse than 10% bigger. But my logic and my testing has shown that 10% bigger really makes the amount of difference that you would expect. None. This is not my bias it's just a fact you can easily test it yourself by say, holding your gps at your normal viewing distance and then moving it 10% further away, can you tell? I doubt it. Regarding the buttons. I really thought that I'd prefer the buttons on the front notwithstanding I'd need to get used to them. I was expecting to like them. I thought for sure the big rocker button on the 60 would be superior and I was prepared to say so. I almost laughed out loud at how spongy it was, there is no tactile feedback at all, unlike say a Stahlwille torque wrench. It is very counter intuitive to have the rocker on the 60 have such a big throw and provide no feedback, it's subtle but having no feedback means you always have to press the rocker more than you need to otherwise if you press it less you need to press it again. I thought the big 60 rocker would be like other big 4 way rockers like on my Nikon D70s where it has a nice tactile feedback and short throw. But it isn't. I'll admit that I was not too happy about the rocker on the etrex at first, but that was a Venture and then a Vista, but the new rockers on the Vista HCx are a vast improvement on earlier models. I was using an old Venture a couple of days ago and the difference is big. It takes a fair bit of force. But the new Vista's are really nice. They have a soft tactile 'click' and a very short throw and the centre press is much easier too. If the 60 had a rocker like on my Nikon then it would definitely be better than the eTrex one, but it is not. I can see no reason why the rocker is so spongy on the 60, it is a definite design mistake and I'll put money on it that the new model 60's will fix this. And these all *objective facts* not opinions. Now whether one prefers buttons on the front or not *is* an opinion and I freely admit that and have done so in my review. But that the 60 rocker is a design cock up by not having a short throw with a tactile detente, is objectivly bad. The only type of switches that use this system is where it needs to be continually variable over the whole range like a pitch bender on a keyboard, but when the switch must press a button, it needs to have a tactile detente. A small digression: Garmin have shown a willingness in the past to go against everyone else in the world with their own crazy logic for example when they had a problem with the batteries seating in the some of the old eTrex's. Instead of putting a little piece of rubber under the flat spring like they have done on the new models, what did Garmin do. Horror of horrors they replaced one of the flat springs that pressed up against the positive battery nipple with...wait for it... a freaking coil spring!!! So one of the batteries had to be inserted with the nipple end in first against the coil spring and then slide the negative terminal down against the remaining flat spring. In no other electrical appliance will you ever see such idiocy. Unless you see it in front of you it's difficult to appreciate how ludicrous it is. If you do think about the geometry of this you will quickly understand that this increases the *effective* length of the battery (as there is no cut away shoulder) making it a real problem to insert and remove. I used to have to use a fork to get the batteries out of my old venture and Vista that had this problem but two other Ventures I have owned have had normal flat springs all around. So probably not many have experienced the horror this this 'solution'. Another objective *fact* is that the rocker switch is used a lot with the enter switch like when you need to search for an address or name a waypoint or write some info. While it may be easier to press the find button once on the 60 and it's very slightly less easy on the HCx because you have to press the left button twice and click the rocker down, it's not something that you need to do a lot of. Unlike naming and writing stuff or finding and address. This entails extensive rocker use and every single rocker movement to scroll to a letter required the finger to come off the rocker and move to another key then back again. For every single letter. This is objectively a PITA. If anyone thinks pressing an extra key twice to get to the find menu on the HCx is a problem then god only knows what they think of the using the 60 rocker and 'enter' button to type in a series of letters. Objectively what does one need to press buttons for in the car? I mean if you are navigating to an address then you set it up before you start, why do you need to press buttons again. When I'm using the HCx on my motorbike with it around my neck all I ever do is sometimes switch the light on and to do that I just need a very gentle sideways movement on the rockker, much better than pressing in a button. But even in a car I cannot imagine any situation where one somehow needs to keep pressing buttons. And in the car the most important thing is legibility. Obviously. And the 60 is objectively very very dull. 20% of the HCx is bad. I'd like to know how many HCx owners would ever set their HCx less than 50% in a car, let alone 25%. In conclusion it is simply wrong of you to suggest I'm pushing my own barrow for my own reasons. I was genuinely shocked at the shoddily designed rocker and even more shocked at the dull screen. And I've not seen *any* reference to these problems in any other thread about the 60 vs HCx.

jcddcjjcd As I said I'm trying to get facts, and I don't have any evidence to support the 60 being more robust, and as I said I wasn't going to do a drop test ;¬) however I've heard reports of both these units surviving very bad accidents. I would get they are equally robust, they both use an equally bad non welded contact from the battery. SiliconFiend You can test it quickly yourself--just hold it sideways and look at the signal strength, then turn it facing up and notice the change. I don't doubt your experience at all but I did to the tests and I found that in *any* orientation the HCx registered about 1 metre more accuracy than the 60CSx. ergomaniac You are correct, I purposely neglected to mention the serial cable and external antenna. The reason is that the circumstances where one would want/need an external antenna are so slim as to be irrelevant to those to whom this review is for. I feel that if it was important to have serial connection or external antenna then those seeking these things would already know what they need. I felt that including these 'features' can not serve any real purpose as to which unit is 'better', which is what all the HCx 60CSx threads are about. hogrod Not just 'brighter' but a hell of a lot brighter. I am amazed that no one has yet mentioned how bad it really is, if you wear sunglasses in the car then the 60CSx would almost be useless.I do not think that the rubber band issue is really relevant as it appears to be a problem with a limited number of older units. However I've owned quite a few second hand Ventures and Vistas over 5 years old, and the rubber bands have been as tight as a fishes ***hole, which as we all know, is waterproof.

I've just been testing an out of the box 60CSx and a Vista HCx, there's always a lot of threads about these two and which is better. If all the points were covered accurately then there would be no need of this thread but there have only been opinions rather than objective facts. As far as the actual workings of the two go with regards to locking on to satellites and holding a signal and so forth let me unequivocally state that there is no difference at all that makes a difference. If you want to get pedantic the HCx has the edge but it's so slight that there is no point using this as a decision on which to get. I also note that the aerials on the two are irrelevant. I've heard it said that the patch antenna on the HCx is not as good as the Quad Helix and also that the Quad is better when held in it's preferred vertical position. I have found both these suggestions to be untrue. I will further say that I could see no difference at all in the HCx whether it was held flat or vertical or vertically upside down. So if you want the most accurate chipset in all conditions then it matters not which one you choose, although I feel the HCx is better. The HCx also reported a more accurate position by 1 metre. SIZE: This one is a no brainer, the HCx is smaller, lighter, fits in the hand better (unless you have huge hands with thick fingers) You get nothing at all in exchange for the extra bulk except for a slightly bigger screen. SCREEN: The image on the 60CSx is slightly bigger, but you see less map. Which means if you wanted to see just that little bit extra map then you'd need to go down a zoom level and the map on the 60 would then be considerably smaller. How big a deal is the slightly bigger screen size. Answer, none at all. I tried using each one at normal viewing distance and even with quick glances I found it no easier to read the 60 screen. Whether this was due to the fact that the 60 screen is slightly lower resolution and therefore 'fuzzier' or if it was simply that they were too similar to make a difference, I don't know. Conclusion: You get no advantage at all from the very very small increase in screen size of the 60CSx BRIGHTNESS: I have seen and I've in fact repeated in other threads that the 60 screen is only as bright at full power as the HCx is on half power and that the 60 is no good in bright sunlight as a result. Neither of these is true. What is true is that the HCx screen is as bright on 20% as the 60CSx screen is on 100%. I never have my HCx at 100% because it's too bright, I usually have it at 50% so I thought that the 60 screen would be OK at 100%. However the 60 screen is in fact half the brightness at full power than the HCx is at 50%. This is remarkable. With regards to the sunlight thing, it makes no difference because the backlight is irrelevant, both are equally easy to see in bright sunlight. Where it really makes a difference is if you are using these inside a car where it's in the shade, or outside in the shade on a bright day. The 60 screen is by a long way very inferior, with the 60 and the HCx at the same distance and both units on full power, (which is what you'd use inside a car) the HCx was much easier to read even though the 60 screen was slightly bigger. Not because the HCx is really bright, but because the 60 Screen is really dull. Far too dull. I suppose this has been done to increase the battery life. For me this makes the 60 a bad choice for the car, yes I know it has buttons on the front (more on that soon) but I don't spend much time fiddling with the buttons while using it in a car, I set it and go. But I do spend a lot of time looking at it. RUGGEDNESS: I wasn't going to do any drop tests but I do note that the back cover for the HCx is solid metal whereas the 60 is plastic. Otherwise they seem similarly well made both have a solid feel. BUTTON PLACEMENT: The politically correct thing to say is that it is a matter of preference, but there is some objective facts as well which I will point out. The HCx has true one handed operation although I sometimes use two depending on my mood. The 60 really needs two hands to operate although I will concede that it can be operated with one hand but it doesn't feel good, feels like you will drop it. I thought I was going to prefer the buttons on the 60 but the fact is that I found the plethora of buttons annoying. To scroll and select with the HCx I do it without moving my thumb off the rocker but on the 60 I need to scroll with the rocker and then take my finger off and press a separate button. Further, the 60 rocker has a lot of movement and a very spongy feel to it whereas the HCx rocker is light with a precise 'click'. When entering addresses where there is lots of scrolling around and entering letters, the HCx easily is more convenient to operate. I really hate the spongy feel of the 60 rocker. While I concede that it's a personal decision I feel that any objective person using both for a while would select the HCx once you come to understand the logic of how the buttons work. To mark and name a waypoint you only need to keep your thumb on the HCx rocker with small movents, but to mark and name a waypoint on the 60 you need to continually make big spongy movements and alternate between the rocker and a separate button. BATTERY: The HCx gets it's full reported 25 hours from a pair of 2700 NiMH batteries with the compass running full time. The 60 is reported to have a battery life of 18 hours, but in the real world we do make use of the backlight a fair bit and as the 60 backlight is basically useless at less than 100% and that the HCx can be easily used at 30%, then I would guess with more extensive backlighting, which does draw a lot of power, that the difference between the two would be more than the stated 25 vs 18 hours. Conclusion: I see nothing at all that makes me prefer the 60, not a single feature. It has too many buttons and a very spongy rocker. Big and bulky for no reason. The worst thing about the 60 is the very dull screen. It would be the main reason that I'd recommend not getting it. I fail to understand why no one has said how bad it really is. I suppose they were just guessing that it was 50% less bright rather than setting up the same screen and comparing.

There's only one way to tell how accurate your gps is and it is by far the best way as well. Go to the nearest intersection where you live and stand in the middle* and mark a waypoint. Next go to gpsvisualizer.com and load the waypoint into maps.google and see how accurate it is. *watch out for traffic.

Hi, is there a way to just select when I want to start and end a track... Yes, go to the Main Menu > Tracks page and press 'Save' you will then get a dialog box asking if you want to save the entire track, select 'No' and you will be prompted to enter a beginning and end. or does it always automatically start right when I turn on the unit? Yes. ...but I didn't know if a start/stop option existed for it. Well it's sort a start/stop in that you can turn track log on or off in the Tracks Page. Also...once I save a route, is there a way to tell the distance between the start and end of the track? If I used a PC and therefore could operate Mapsource I believe that information can be retrieved there. Second, when caching, I will set the coordinates to find and i follow my compass and will be lead right near the cache, but when it says I arrived at the location but then the compass turns off and stops tracking those coordinates because it thinks I have got there...but really i would like to have the compass stay on so I am able to circle a bit and get a feel for the area especially if there is weak signal and it is leading me around a bit and it isn't too accurate. Any ideas on how to make the tracking of those coordinates stay up instead of dissapearing? I have not seen this behaviour when using Go To for a waypoint it does not stop tracking, it only does that if I arrive at a route point, not a waypoint. Someone suggested elsewhere that seeing as the compass is a bit erratic at close range you can use the lat long coordinates first moving N/S then E/W, but you are probably within the normal searching circle anyhoo. Further I find it difficult to believe that anyone would place a cache where an HCx could not get a good fix.

Any of the H receivers as as good as or more likely better than the 60CSX with regards to not losing a signal in impossible condidtions. If you are already used to the eTrex you should understand that the 60CSx has been trumped by the new Vista HCx which does everything you want plus it's lighter smaller and has a brighter screen and better battery life. You can pick one up on eBay for $210

1. A GPS calculates velocity from the doppler shifts (change in frequency due to motion) of the signals it is receiving from the satellites, so it's not simply distance divided by time. Is this correct? Doesn't the gps measure the distance between two points and the time between two points and use this for the velocity calculation? Surely this would be a simpler way of measuring tiny velocities?

I've seen about 10 million threads about it but as yet I fail to understand how it occurs. I'm not particularly bothered by it I just want to understand why it is proving so intractable. I pulled out an old Venture (monochrome) last week and remembered that it registers very slow moving speeds unlike the new HCx. I've seen allusions to the problem being to do with the chipset, but no further explanation about how it could come about. I mean either the chipset is measuring position constantly or it is not, and if it is what's the big deal about the math. Why can't the HCx divide distance by time as well as earlier gpsr's? this surely has to be one of the most simple calculations that a gps can make. One would think that collecting more satellite data would enable the HCx to record even slower velocity. I cannot see/understand where exactly the problem lies. So the gpsr sees me at point X at time T, then it sees me at X1 at time T1, but if the calculation is below 2kph it will not give me a reading. Why? it's either programmed to or it is not.

It looks like all the water being filtered was clear mountain water, in which case I need to pose the question why would anyone want to use a katadyne water filter in this instance. I had a blue katadyne pocket filter for 15 years and it's great but a lot of work, at the time the Steripen was not available but after getting the Steripen I can only marvel at why anyone would want to put themselves through all the hard work of using a water filter (pumping, cleaning, repacking, lubricating) when the steripen kills everything without any effort in 45 seconds? (.5 litre) If you are using very turbid water then I can understand getting a filter but not mountain streams.

I just bought City Navigator Australia V7 on a CD and went down to the local library to use their PC's to load it up, rather than get it on an SD card. That way I can still take advantage of the extra license (not available in the 2008 version) and get a free update as well. It sure is a pain not being able to use Garmin software on a Mac but at least it's only a one time load.

Yes, even if you had it set to be on it will turn off when it is restarted. However you do not need to go into the menu to reset it at the level you want it to be. After starting press and release the 'on' key quickly and it will come on at the level it was last set at, then press the enter key.

real world difference in price = $15. The alitmeter is a fun piece of geekery but the electronic compass is well worth paying the extra $15 bucks for. Doesn't mean you can't take a back up compass with you but it's nice to have a built in compass instead of having to use an external compass to orient the GPSr when you are stationary or moving slowly or erratically. It seems a bit silly to be holding a compass in one hand and a gps in the other when you don't have to. Also note you can turn it off and anyway it doesn't put any measurable drain on the batteries. linky

When I started looking for a GPSr, I looked at the Magellan website, I found it impossible to get any coherent information presented in a logical order, which immediately set the alarm bells ringing. Some further forum searches indicated that I'd be better of with a Garmin. Apparently Garmin after sales service is excellent too. I'm very happy with all the Garmin units I've owned. From some second hand Ventures and Vistas to the new Vista HCx all were reliable accurate and solidly made.

I've seen no evidence that the 60CSx is more rugged, only that it has a more macho shape. In fact I've seen reports of it suffering from vibration problems when used on a bike. I also have seen no evidence that the antenna is better. My HCx tracks with 3 meter accuracy while hanging vertically upside down while inside a train carriage.

click me

I presume you mean the Vista HCx vs the Summit HC, the real world difference is price is $30 ($180 for the Summit $210 for the Vista HCx) To try and save $30 would be in my humble opinion, madness. You'll get double your $30 back when the time comes to sell these as well. The Summit HC has 14 hours battery life rather then 25+ for the HCx.

I assumed this meant to switch from compass mode from the map page if I was moving slowly... No, it doesn't switch from map to compass mode what that setting does is decide when the GPSr uses the internal flux gate compass and when it uses the satellites to get a compass reading. The GPSr can only use the satellites to get a compass reading when you are moving. When you are moving in a straight line like in a car it's better to use have the internal compass off and use the satellites. Also, under routing setup I have it set on prompted,for guidance method. the 'prompted' option has nothing to do with the compass. What that option is for is when you have City Navigator loaded and it does auto routing. When you select a point and tell the unit to 'GoTo', if you have 'prompted' set it will ask you if you want to follow the roads or go in a straight line.

If you are thinking about the 60CSx then you should also consider the Vista HCx same specs but lighter and smaller. Maybe it also has the edge over the 60CSx with regards to getting a fix in very difficult conditions but there's not much in it.

What's the big deal anyway you can buy an adapter for $3 however if $3 it too much you can get one for 99c

@'Dismania Is the compass on? First of all you need to understand that the red pointer is not equivalent to the red pointer on a real compass. The compass on the GPSr is the ring around the compass. When the compass is not on or calibrated properly then the red pointer will point to the bearing not the direction of the cache. If the compass is on and calibrated then the pointer will point in the right direction. If you have the compass off then when you are moving the compass will take a gps reading but if you path is not straight the point can point in various directions. When you get real close to the cache, the gps error can make the compass useless. In the set up page for compass you can set it to come on when you want. The default is that is comes on when you are moving under 10 miles and hour for more than 90seconds. You can change this to be 1 mile an hour for 5 seconds, which is more useful.

That's what I thought however I have discovered that it is not *completely* useless, just mostly useless. I bought a US model and loaded it up with City Navigator Australia and I have discovered that if I zoom way out to scroll to a different part of Australia the HCx automatically switches to 'basemap' and the Australian basemap in the US models is not any good at all. I can force it to not show any basemap in which case if I zoom out a lot it then need to redraw at City Navigator level, which is sloooooow. Seeing as the price difference for an Australian model is more than double the US price it wasn't a deal breaker for me but it was a mild piss off.

I loaded Worldmap into my HCx and when I loaded City Navigator it erased the Worldmap, even though there's plenty of room on the 1Gb card. I need to go to the local library and install all the soltware to load up my mapsource programs as I'm on a mac so before I try and see if installing Worldmap again will erase my City Navigator (Australia) I thought I'd check here to see what will happen.

That is excellent info. I always advise getting the Vista HCx over the Legend HCx for a lousy extra $15 (in the real world). I knew the compass has been improved to the point where it used very little battery power as I get the full rated 25 hours of continuous use with my rechargable NiMH batteries and full time compass. But it's nice to have it confirmed.

Er how about no viruses, malware, adware or crapware? Or an OS based on rock solid industrial strength unix?