simpjkee

Who the heck knows! Could have been anything. It may or may not have even been a cacher. Unless you have your cache under 24 hour surveillance, you'll never know why. Just take pride in doing some owner maintanence and let it go.

I used to watch over my logbooks and logs on my caches like a hawk. I wanted to catch people 'cheating' and yadda yadda to keep the game 'fair'. It's virtually impossible to police it accurately though and I've realized that there are no real rules or governing body so there is really no such thing as 'cheating' and 'fairness' in geocaching. It's all just how people play their game. At this point I pay little (if any) attention to policing logs on my caches. If it seems like there was a mistake made, I might send the cacher an email if I think it would help straighten out an error. Someone recently did this on an error I made and I greatly appreciated it. If I saw what I believed to be fraudulent logging, I don't think I'd do anything. At this point, I just worry about my own logging methods. I don't worry about anyone elses.

I was FTP (First to Post).

In theory, the best option would be to write COs of "problematic" questions that I'm thinking of going to and as if they need any assistance with maintenance. And probably write down COs phone numbers. This just goes to show that some COs don't want or appreciate the help. Which is why although I replace the log, the old log is left in a place that as long as the CO gets on the ball, the old log is there. I went by a cache that I logged maybe 8 months ago and replaced the log. Left the old log in a plastic nano tube taped to the back of a sign. It is STILL there. IF the CO wants it. Myself, I can't begin to imagine why anyone would want a wet, shredded, ink stained piece of toilet tissue with a list of dates and names on it. I even left an entire cache recently. The cache was gone. The entire post the cache was hidden on had been replaced. Now, I didn't take credit for the cache. But I did place a magnetic nano with a log nearby, take a pic and send the coords and pic to the cache owner in case they wanted to save themselves a trip out into the countryside to replace the thing. Some people need to watch Jack Nicholson's speech in A Few Good Men about questioning the manner in which protection is provided. Some COs are the type to bring a lawsuit against you for injuries they suffer when you save their lives by pulling them from a burning car. Jeesh. If you placed a throwdown cache at my cache site I would really be upset. Maybe even more so than if you thieved my logbook. In your first paragraph, you are leaving a second cache at GZ. In your second paragraph you placed a throwdown. This is precisely the bad habits I'm talking about. Your profile says you only been caching a little over a year so I assume you are new. For that, I'll give you a pass right now, but after today you're eligible for public shaming! You're not doing the game, CO's, or future finders any good. Please learn about the various logs GS has provided us and log your cache visits appropriately. Thank you! 1- I didn't thieve a log book. If anything I protected it from further damage, put it in a safe place and informed the CO. 2- Not a throw down. Placed an empty cache at a nearby location. Took a pic of it and sent the new coords to the ACTIVE CO. Didn't log it. Posted a NM log. So public shaming? Try to explain exactly how I did anything at all to deserve shame from either of the above though. I just don't see it. This missing cache was way out in the country. With gas at $7.50/gallon here, this is not a trivial matter. The CO had the option of going out there. If so, fine. The cache wasn't interfering with anything. Now, if I had just tossed the log? Not a big deal to me but would agree that some COs might want it and even if they didn't, some would say so just so they could do a bit of public shaming. To me, it looks like the safest way to avoid conflict is just say screw it, make a couple of ink marks on the wet tissue, and move along. Not REQUIRED to log a NM. Might just piss off the CO that you didn't do something. Might piss the CO if you do something. Not going to send a message, set up camp and wait for a response. Yeah, let's all do that. Except for my caches. If you find something wrong with my cache and fix it, thanks. Just don't move it from where you found it to a better place. That IS against the rules, right? I didn't say you thieved a logbook in these two cases. I said you placed a throwdown, which you did do. Maybe I misunderstand, but you stated: "I even left an entire cache recently. The cache was gone." How is that not a throwdown? If it were my cache, I'd have to go to the countryside anyway to get rid of your throwdown nano and replace my cache appropriately. The public shaming comment was just a snarky remark. U mad bro? (<------thats snarky too) If you are looking for the safest way to avoid conflict, you could just stop playing geocaching. That would pretty much guarantee that you wouldn't see any geo-conflict. But I'd hate to see that happen so lets think about this. No CO has the right to be upset with a finder for not maintaining their cache for them. If you don't maintain a cache for a CO, that's their problem not yours. On the flipside, the CO has every right to be upset with a finder who 'maintains' their cache for them without their permission. That's on you. If you want to do the right thing, you'll use the logs given to us by GS appropriately. If the CO decides, for whatever reason (price of gas, etc) that they can't or don't want to maintain their cache, they shouldn't own it. It should be archived or adopted out to someone who will maintain it. The choice is the CO's. Not the finders. It's interesting that we both seem to agree that its a fundamental part of the game that caches should be rehidden as found, but you have a list of scenarios where that basic idea doesn't apply.

I value my logbooks. They are more than just a 'piece of paper with scribbling on it'! Other cachers like geocoins. I love and collect my logbooks. Maybe I'm the only one. Here's my personal collection from my archived caches and a few caches where the CO asked me to replace the logbook and didn't want it back (so I kept it): Maybe my most notable log:

But I like to show up and fix these matters. I like to check on my caches. Its part of the enjoyment of being a cache owner. Going out to maintain my cache is not an inconvenience. It is a convenience!

English is my second language so I would better not give any suggestions here. I'm a worried about how this thread went and apologize for any insults that may occur from my words. Maybe there are some cultural differencies that I don't know yet or it's just about my not-so-excellent English. I value this discussion as well. No worries. I don't feel insulted at all. Just two friends talking about the hobby we are both passionate about. I thought your english was fine. I was surprised when I looked at your profile and saw you are Russian.

If you're the owner move it. If you're not the owner, e-mail the owner (or maybe log a NM on the cache page) and let them now what you observe so they can decide what to do. If you get no response from the owner, then let the cache die. When it's gone, log a NA.

I once had a nice encounter like that with a LEO. He told me how it sounded like a nice hobby for him to do with his son and everything. Then the cache turned up missing.

Right. You are correct. Having a designated friend to help you maintain your cache is an acceptable cache maintanence plan. Relying on random cachers to maintain your cache whenever there is an issue is not. But were talking about cache maintanence from the finders perspective not the owner. On a cache you own, you can add those notes (for the record you're talking about a finder adding something not taking something which is what prompted this discussion). Whether that is an acceptable maintanence plan is debatable and off topic in this thread. Maybe I should remind you that the topic here is a cache finder taking a logbook without the owners permission. That is the issue here and that is thievery. The topic is not you adding something to the cache or you, as cache owner, asking people to leave pencils in your cache or acceptable cache maintanence plans. I am saying "folks don't ever maintain caches you don't own, especially without owners permission. As finder, please use the logs provided by GS to accurately share your visit online. If your visit resulted in you feeling the cache needs maintanence. That is what you should log." What would you call someone who takes something that is not theirs without permission of the owner, and does so thinking they are doing the owner a favor? I don't know what that word is. 'Thief' is what comes to mind. stealer? poacher?

I agree. There are two different situations however: when a new logsheet cannot be added (mostly nanos) and when (as you mentioned) the logbook is totally wet and even can make some harm to other contents of the container. So I did in some cases. Last time a microcache was obviously muggled and (failing to contact the CO at once) I placed a small container in different location not far away and sent coordinates/description to the CO. From my point of view COs could be more active in communication with the geocaching community. I mean that if CO knows about some problem he/she may leave a note in cache log like "Please wait until I maintain it" or "Please replace the full logbook with a new one and send me a scan of the old one" or "Please contact me in advance if you're about to visit this cache". This could be helpful. I suppose that to be responsible for a CO doesn't only mean to be ready to rush to any cache and repair it. It's also about being ready to communicate with cache seekers, to find local maintainers, at last to let other geocacher to adopt the cache. Really? I think it's cleary implied that cache owners maintain their own caches and other cachers don't maintain caches that aren't theirs. Isn't one the only 'rules' of the game that cachers 'replace the cache as they found it'. I don't think it is my position that is 'radical'.

In theory, the best option would be to write COs of "problematic" questions that I'm thinking of going to and as if they need any assistance with maintenance. And probably write down COs phone numbers. This just goes to show that some COs don't want or appreciate the help. Which is why although I replace the log, the old log is left in a place that as long as the CO gets on the ball, the old log is there. I went by a cache that I logged maybe 8 months ago and replaced the log. Left the old log in a plastic nano tube taped to the back of a sign. It is STILL there. IF the CO wants it. Myself, I can't begin to imagine why anyone would want a wet, shredded, ink stained piece of toilet tissue with a list of dates and names on it. I even left an entire cache recently. The cache was gone. The entire post the cache was hidden on had been replaced. Now, I didn't take credit for the cache. But I did place a magnetic nano with a log nearby, take a pic and send the coords and pic to the cache owner in case they wanted to save themselves a trip out into the countryside to replace the thing. Some people need to watch Jack Nicholson's speech in A Few Good Men about questioning the manner in which protection is provided. Some COs are the type to bring a lawsuit against you for injuries they suffer when you save their lives by pulling them from a burning car. Jeesh. If you placed a throwdown cache at my cache site I would really be upset. Maybe even more so than if you thieved my logbook. In your first paragraph, you are leaving a second cache at GZ. In your second paragraph you placed a throwdown. This is precisely the bad habits I'm talking about. Your profile says you only been caching a little over a year so I assume you are new. For that, I'll give you a pass right now, but after today you're eligible for public shaming! You're not doing the game, CO's, or future finders any good. Please learn about the various logs GS has provided us and log your cache visits appropriately. Thank you!

Despite a newbies' intentions, you call it an act of theft. This opinion was already made public but even if it wasn't (and wasn't related to any specific situation) it's not just about publicity. It's about personal understanding how geocaching is played in practice. COs are different. Most are happy when I help them to do little maintenance for their geocaches. Some don't care. Some say that it's not a good practice and it's better to post a NM message. Your position is the most radical I've heard. I usually don't know COs of caches that I'm going to visit and I definitely don't wan't anyone to think of me as a thieve. At the same time I see no sense in travelling to some remote location, finding a cache, discovering a wet/unusable logbook and leaving the place being not able to sign the logbook and log the cache as found. In theory, the best option would be to write COs of "problematic" questions that I'm thinking of going to and as if they need any assistance with maintenance. And probably write down COs phone numbers. Taking something that is not yours is an act of theft. I understand how geocaching is played. I understand CO's are different. I understand that some CO's prefer that you take their logs (up for debate, but is it theft if someone perfers that you take their stuff? hmmmm....). The best practice is to post a NM log. If you don't want anyone to think of you as a thief, your best bet is to log caches appropriately and not take something out that is not yours (in reference to the logbook, not swag, of course). If I can't sign a logbook, I add a logbook. Nothing wrong with leaving something in the cache. It's taking someone elses property out of the cache that constitutes theft. I love your theory of asking CO's before hand. I've helped out a few CO's in that way and they are usually very appreciative that I asked them first and got clear instructions on what they prefered I do.

Thievery isn't quite the word when, as other geocachers have stated, they contact the CO and offer to mail it to them. Or as I do, place it in a protective bag, hide the protective bag elsewhere and inform the CO of the location. At the same time, I don't think your method is a bad one. You do no harm. Well, other than destroy the evidence of someone else finding the cache, and on the scale of world problems, that would rank pretty close to the bottom of the list. Ok, in the cases you bring up, instead of 'thievery', the need for destruction Final thought. I'm discussing this b/c I don't think it is theft or kidnapping and the terms are too strong. But... Willful destruction is just as much a crime as theft And Placing geocaches is akin to deliberate littering. I gotta have my smiley, bro! If it's between writing over someone elses name or stealing their logbook... I think writing over someone elses name is the lesser of two evils. ....and placing a geocache is not even close to littering... at least not when I place a geocache.

Thievery isn't quite the word when, as other geocachers have stated, they contact the CO and offer to mail it to them. Or as I do, place it in a protective bag, hide the protective bag elsewhere and inform the CO of the location. At the same time, I don't think your method is a bad one. You do no harm. Well, other than destroy the evidence of someone else finding the cache, and on the scale of world problems, that would rank pretty close to the bottom of the list. Ok, in the cases you bring up, instead of 'thievery', how about 'taken hostage': Ideally, the CO would have been notified ahead of time that the log was running out of space and they would have replaced it by the time the destruction took place. Unfortunately that is rarely the case, hence the need for destruction and a NM log reporting the destruction because I'm an honest guy like that. Yeah, if the CO had been responsible in the first place none of this would have happened. If a Geocacherbruns across my GPSr at a cache site I would much rather they pick it up and contact me.. Bit different but you get the idea. The log isn't being taken hostage, just saved from destruction. And my way, the owner can just pick up the log the next time they are around. I even used a nano tube to put an old log in once and a took a pic of where i left it. Is that theft? I would hesitate to use such a word as theft, with its negative conotations, when the police would certainly never dream of making or taking the case. I stand with those that replace and inform. Rather than ask what each other would do in this case, whatwould others prefer to have done? I need an old, wet, disintergrting log sheet like a fish needs a bicycle. GPSr analogy is different. I don't 'get the idea' other than that we seem to have two different opinions on whether a cacher should be maintaining a cache that is not theirs. A word is a word. It's 'connotations' are just peoples perceptions of the word. Theft happens all the time with and without police involvement. Either way, a certain cache maggot from a few years ago came to mind when I read your post. I totally agree with you on the old, wet, disintegrating log sheet. If, God forbid, you come to one of my caches in that condition I hope you would log the NM so I could go take care of it ASAP.

What if I'm a newbie who saw a problem and wished to help the CO and the following visitors? Would you blame me as thief or hostage taker in public afterwards? Whoa that quote is a little out of context, but anyway... If you're a newbie who saw a problem and wished to help the CO and the following visitors you should use the logs appropriately. In this case, the appropriate thing to do would be to log a NM. GS has provided us with excellent logging options. They are very helpful whether you're a newbie or a veteran cacher. I would especially want a newbie to get in the habit of using the logs appropriately to prevent any bad habits from developing. You taking my logbook without my permission is not 'helping' me. You notifying me via a NM log that my logbook is full so that I can go replace it, is helping me and future visitors. Let me make sure I understand your question. If you were a newbie and you got to my cache (beside the point, but I would never place a nano ) and the log was full and you decided to take my log and put in a new log, would I then call you a thief or hostage taker in public? That is your question? To answer...Of course I wouldn't. I'm not a heartless person. I don't think public shame is the answer here. I understand that your act of theft is a misguided attempt at helping me out. I would email you privately and 1) get my log back and 2)nicely and politely suggest that you take advantage of the logging options provided us and not take it upon yourself to maintain caches that aren't yours.

Thievery isn't quite the word when, as other geocachers have stated, they contact the CO and offer to mail it to them. Or as I do, place it in a protective bag, hide the protective bag elsewhere and inform the CO of the location. At the same time, I don't think your method is a bad one. You do no harm. Well, other than destroy the evidence of someone else finding the cache, and on the scale of world problems, that would rank pretty close to the bottom of the list. Ok, in the cases you bring up, instead of 'thievery', how about 'taken hostage': "I took your property without your permission. If you want it back you must send me your address." "Hey thanks bro, but how about you just not take my property in the first place." I hate to 'destroy the evidence of someone else finding the cache'. Ideally, the CO would have been notified ahead of time that the log was running out of space and they would have replaced it by the time the destruction took place. Unfortunately that is rarely the case, hence the need for destruction and a NM log reporting the destruction because I'm an honest guy like that.

Yeah, that comment really jumped out at me too. If you ever see me pass up an oppurtunity to meet another cacher so I can beat them to a FTF, you have my permission to punch me in the face.

Threads like this and countless other threads on this forum remind me to be greatful that I never had anything more than a casual interest in the FTF game. Its just silly.

Sounds like you are logging 'found it' logs on caches that you've never been to. How you play is your business, but that's not how I play geocaching. I would support the cache owners right to delete your log on the ones you didn't find. edit: For the record, I see you are just saying this in first person, but it is not actually you.

I don't support the idea of cachers reparing logs or caches that are not their own. If I found a nano with a full log, I would sign over someone elses name and then log my find and a NM. If a cacher insists, I believe a log can be added, but under no circumstances should a cacher remove a log from a cache without permission from the cache owner. IMO, thats thievery.

I've had a number of LEO encounters. I give them my state issue ID and explain the game. They check me out on the computer and see I have a clean record so they give me my ID back and let me go. Personally, I think a geocaching id card would be worthless.

I did a 100 cache power trail with some friends a couple days ago. It was monotonous as all get out, but we got one cache every two to three minutes according to my field notes on my GPS. I ended up with 142 throughout the whole day (my record). It was 3 teams/5 people. Team #1 was two people. Team #2 was two people. Team #3 was just me. Of Team #1, one was driver and one was finder on half of caches and recordkeeper on half of caches Of Team #2, one was co-driver/navigator, and the other was finder on half of caches and recordkeeper on half of caches. Of Team #3, I was finder on all of caches. Once at GZ, I and the other finder would hop out to hunt the cache. If I spotted the cache, I would open it and hand the log to the other finder to sign all three names. Then they would put the log back in and I'd rehide it. If the other finder found it, they would open it and hand me the log and I would sign all three names. Then I would put the log back in and they would rehide it. My name was on every log and I touched every log, but I only wrote my name on about 75% of the logs. I logged all of them online. My standard of what a find was for me is when I physically sign my name on the logbook. (When I began caching and was in a group, we would pass around the logbook so everyone could sign it). Obviously, my standard was not totally upheld on 25% of this power trail. I didn't feel too good about it. I felt like a kid who feels peer pressured to do something that doesn't feel totally right to him, but he goes along and does it anyway. I would've much preferred to find 10 and take my time than find 100 and feel rushed and pressured to find more and more. Of course, I was only 1/5 of the group so majority ruled. There were others doing the trail that day and I did see some cache shuffling/3 cache monty going on and it made me nautious. One member of the group I was in considered it and I flat out refused to participate so the idea was squashed.

"Found on April 24, 2007. Thanks." I've edited this log a couple times while trying to change the date (it was out of order), but I think this is what the online log said originally. My physical log had the date, my username, and one of my favorite quotes.